Sony Staff - BIG request, please!

NeilPorter wrote on 5/31/2004, 5:03 AM
Over the last couple of days there has been discussion about 'flashes' that are caused by odd frames appearing. It seems that the main cause of these is editing video tracks and not having 'Quantize to frames' switched on. The first time I saw these, it was a complete mystery to me, but, just as I read the 'flashes' thread, I was rendering a 14 minute video that contained about a dozen of these odd frames. Of course, I didn't know this until I viewed the video. I had, a number of times, previously encountered partial frame problems so it wasn't new, but no less annoying.

It seems to me that, when encountering a fraction of a frame, that Vegas just grabs a whole frame from just about anywhere and inserts it.

At my level of experience I cannot think of any reason that I would actually want to move or edit video, and, especially, to use the 'S' key to split it, other than at a frame boundary. But I will do it, and we all will, if we keep forgetting to switch 'Quantize to frames' back on after editing audio. The problems caused are really painful to fix and are only noticable (by me, anyway) after rendering.

Therefore .....

Can we please have a warning pop up saying, "'Quantize to frames' is switched off - are you sure you wish to proceed?", especially when splitting using the 'S' key.

Yes, it is our responsibility to have efficient work procedures, but, please have mercy on us with this one and give us a warning.

Also - is there any way to notice fractionally split frames prior to rendering? i.e. on the timeline. I can never see them when playing back on the timeline, only after rendering.

regards,
Neil Porter

Comments

farss wrote on 5/31/2004, 5:59 AM
Niel,
from what I have seen, you DON'T have to have Quantize to Frames OFF to cause this to happen. Maybe I've got it wrong but it is possible with QTF to trim a clip to zero length, the thing is still there though and it would seem that perhaps this zero length clip can get turned into a single frame.
Bob.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 5/31/2004, 6:13 AM
QTF MAY be the problem. If you make a clip with 0 length (but it's still there), with QTF it will jump to a frame, hence the glitch.

I've never seen this though (knock on wood). Also, having a warning EVERY time I split with QTF off would drive me nuts. I turn it off frequently to sync up the audio. :)
farss wrote on 5/31/2004, 6:20 AM
What I've seen is very easy to recreate, just trim a clip till there's nothing there, except there still is something there!
filmy wrote on 5/31/2004, 7:23 AM
Vegas 4 has this issue, can't say about Vegas 5. Vegas 4 it does not matter if Quantize to frames is on or off - when it happenns it happens. But also the frame thing is several things -

1> The "Gap" issue where after making and edit and the timeline "ripples" there is a small one frame, or less, space - or gap between edits.

2> The black frame render where some people report finding black frames in a rendered section *during* a shot, not at edit points. And this only happens at the render, not at preview, so one can't see it until it is too late. (This seems more rare than the other 2 issues here)

3> The single frame "flash" that places a seemingly random frame somewhere onto the timeline. This frame can be either black or a from another shot. For me this only has happened when I cut or delete something and the ripple pulls up the timeline. Shutting Vegas down and reopening it seems to cure this "frame buffer" issue as I call it.

None of these can be easly reproduced but many of us have one or more of these issues. They do exist but every few months someone new to Vegas posts the problem and someone than will say "Make sure quantize to frames is turned on" and than myself and some others make our posts saying "Um...that doesn't matter". To me this is a phantom bug that the SoFo/Sony team has never been able to repro so it just exists and we have to deal with it as best we can.
Maestro wrote on 5/31/2004, 9:00 AM
Due to audio syncing and video shifting, I have the same dilema. Although it's a royal pain, here's how I check for the partial gaps:

Go to the beginning of the video track. Make sure the track is selected but your focus is on the timeline. Then zoom way in by pressing Ctrl+Up twice. That fills the entire timeline with a single frame. I usually back off a couple of steps from there (down arrow). Then, continually press Ctrl+Alt+Right to move to the next cut/splice/transition boundary. Any gaps will show up on the timeline. By keeping hold of Ctrl+Alt and speedily moving through using the right arrow, partial gaps can be found quickly. Like I said, it's a pain but it's better than rendering the whole thing and finding a gap later.

Alternatively, you can use the same technique but stay zoomed out if you want. Each splice in the timeline should only take one hit of the right arrow to move through. If you have to hit the right arrow twice, you've got a gap.

HTH,

-Brent
johnmeyer wrote on 5/31/2004, 10:16 AM
What I've seen is very easy to recreate, just trim a clip till there's nothing there, except there still is something there!

Yes. This happens all the time to me, and I ALWAYS have QTF turned on.
riredale wrote on 5/31/2004, 10:28 AM
The first time someone finds a way to make a repeatable error, please post.

I had problems back in the fall of 2002 with Vegas3. I would find projects where the end of a particular segment had 1 or 2 frames from the BEGINNING of that segment mysteriously tacked on. Occasionally there would be a black frame thrown in. In a one-hour movie there might be three such goofs.

Then, last fall, I did my 3 1/2 hour project (distilled from 60 hours of raw video). Not a single glitch, ever. I was using Vegas4.

What is not at all clear to me is whether: (1) I now use different editing habits, (2) the particular problem was fixed, or (3) some switch combination in one of the Vegas menus is different than before. Again, as soon as someone has an "Aha!" moment about how to get a repeatable glitch, then the software gurus can fix it.
GmElliott wrote on 5/31/2004, 3:28 PM
I'm the one that started that "other" thread about this- and in my experience it has nothing to do with Quantize to Frames. I always have Quantize to Frames ON. Never found a reason to turn it off. Anyway there must be many different "types" of this problem. The one I'm seeing can't be a result from trimming a clip down to a zero lenth due to my workflow. However others have.

I'm convinced the problem I've encountered (on many occasions) is something to do with frame buffering or ram. Everytime I shut down Vegas and reload it the problem goes away.

On a related note I encountered the problem again 2 days ago- this time it was related to a transition. At the very first frame of a "soft flash" transition between two clips I'd see a single frame right at the beginning of the transition that belongs roughly half-way through the transition. It resutled in a blip right as the transition would start. I tried moving the clip on the left of the transition to another track and investigated both clips. No out of place frames. As soon as I'd move the clip back down to the same track creating the transition again the odd frame was back.

I saved the VEG and was able to shut down Vegas, reload it and have it STILL exist. Maybe this VEG can help Sony figure out the problem. Though it may be a different problem with a similar result. Reason being- this is the first time I was able to shut down and reload and STILL have it showing an odd frame!