Winrock,

I did too until I had to get approval from my administration to use vegas for the classroom. But more users would definitely open up the plugins a lot more then we could see Trapcodes and Colorista etc...

good point , sometimes I'm a selfish little #$%^

glad you have it in a classroom.

Patrick,
there were people here who who've tried to do full length features in Vegas. There were people here who tried to push Vegas into serious broadcast production.
Both got burned.
I've tried too, thankfully only slightly burnt.

As was made perfectly clear at the NAB party no plans to steer the ship in a direction that'd change this sorry situation.

Someone mentioned Sound Forge. Sorry, outside of this community almost unheard of and used even less. It was the #1 DAW, Vegas was the #1 multitracker. Where are they now in that marketspace, how did Protools steal all that marketshare, was it clever marketing, was it secret deals done. No it was delivering what the industry needed to get the job done. Does it do it well, probably not but when it does what Vegas cannot it's irrelevant and a total waste of time trying to flog Vegas / SF into that marketspace.

Bob.

DSE: "This community might represent perhaps 1% of the user base."

Exactly what is the number of Vegas installations? Sony must have a fairly close idea. I'd be interested to know.

Sony Creative Software most likely makes more money than all of us combined so I am not sure how it is that we are positioned to tell them what they are doing wrong. I think the analogy to use is more like we have a beautiful girl friend but she doesn't want to be seen in public with us. Why is it so important that everyone out there know about Vegas? Let Sony worry about that. I feel like I am one of the smart ones to have decided Sony was the best fit for me way back in December 2003. If it takes other people longer to figure that out that is their problem. In the summer of 2003 I had only heard about Adobe but an internet search helped me discover lots of products. I was viewing this forum and others months before I bought a product and then later joined them. Be happy that you "get it" . One day you will be bragging to others how you used Vegas when it was unknown and before it was used to edit Rambo 5.
Harold

Well, having co-founded two public companies from scratch and taken them to $50M each, I initially used a very famous marketing agency to create my ads, and guess what?

Those ads looked very much like those bicycle ads that Sony Creative Software is currently putting into pro publications everywhere.

What's the concept?

Sony's products are like the "snazzy bicycles" you see in the ad that look much better than the "rusty bicycles" you see that symbolize the competition.

So if you prefer "snazzy bicycles" to "rusty bicycles," buy Sony Vegas!

Ditto if you prefer faster speedboats or peppier race cars, buy this agency client's products!

Are you surprised to hear that these ads don't win sales or even agency awards for the ads?

Other expensive and contorted ads at least win originality awards for the agency, even if the client gets no sales increase whatsoever.

I finally got the picture and fired the famous names and started doing my ads inhouse. No more speedboats, race cars, bicycles, or anything else whatsoever that wasn't 100% directly related to the product.

Nothing in the copy (the text) that wasn't telling the reader exactly what his life was going to be like if he forked over his hard-earned money for the product that was advertised.

What happened?

Going from start with zero sales to fifty million dollars in sales in about 5 years.
Twice. Both times in extremely competitive markets, battling some of the world's largest companies.

Sony Creative Software really should do the same thing. It is easy to do, a good copywriter can be had for less than a typical agency fee, and the revenues can come in vastly faster.

I finally got the picture and fired the famous names and started doing my ads in-house.

I have dozens of similar stories, two or three from my own experience. The big agencies sure have great production values, but the soul of your company and your products almost never ends up anywhere in the ad.

Hey Frigid - haven't read through any of your ideas. Time for you to chime in with some gems of your own?

just finished as guest lecturer (video production in the real world) at a regional uni. i don't know any of the staff, etc., but during the course of the lecture i was asked by one of the students what i edited on. i replied vegas, and went on to point out that that was unimportant, what was, was script, and knowing the tools you worked with, etc.,. (the uni has fcp). interestingly enough, about 7 out of the thirteen students started questioning me quite knowledgeably about how to do various things in vegas...rather than get off subject i gave them my email, and directed them here.

it would seem the uni fcp editors had actually gone out of their way to denigrate vegas. a number of students told me they'd actually had quite some argument as to why they (the editors) didn't like it, after they'd admitted to never having used it. terms like, not mainstream, not professional, not industry standard, etc., were thrown about, and, pertinent to this thread - when did you last see it advertised in a magazine (by sony, not a third party)? their argument was - if sony wont support (ie. advertise) it why would you bother?

this isn't unusual, in many years i've come across the 'mine's better than yours' syndrome in editors. well, if you've paid over $500 for something you're going to defend your investment come hell or high water, if for no other reason than you don't want to look like a smuck for buying a lemon. or, if your company / studio have trained you through various levels of avid, you're not going to argue with them...

i think vegas is phenomenal value, and i tell all and sundry so. whether that equates into them buying it is another matter - word of mouth IS important, but the occasional 'splurge' from sony certainly wouldn't go amiss.

btw, NAB, SMPTE, IBC, etc., might be the ultimate toy's for the boys shows, but in truth, relatively few people get to them. the vast majority read reviews of the shows and the equipment therein. or, they research on the net. sony has a powerful name (still), so even a small ad from them would carry a lot of weight...

leslie

I would agree - would love to see more from them. I was just at the digital media net forum for DV, and there are Sound Forge ads all over the place. In fact, I was just reading my stack of publications from NAB and saw ads for Vegas in HD Video Pro, Digital Cinematographer, Markee and a few others I recall. Does anyone know any of the marketing guys? Where are they based? I'm sure you all are well aware - but they've got more to market than just Vegas.

Coursedesign - tell us what companies you launched and grew to 50MM. I'd love to identify the correlations between the growth you were responsible for there, and what the Vegas team could learn from you. I'm sure you wouldn't mind sharing, right?

And someone explain to me how more advertising support has anything to do with 'product support'? What would it take to make you happy? If in fact they are utlizing dollars to hire more code writers - I'd be perfectly fine with that. I think there's a much better return in development than there is in having an ad on page 65 of DV magazine.

There's some serious momentum with this product. I guess you're either going to believe in them, or not. I'm new to this forum, and man - it seems like most of you get off on bashing the company and product. In fact - I've never seen so many posts, "If I were running the company...", "If I were creating the feature set...".

Fridge - c'mon. If you're sitting on some valid opinions, time to document them. I think you kicked this whole thing off, right?

Roy

> I am not sure how it is that we are positioned to tell them what they are doing wrong

Do you know who John Meyer is?

So. I wonder when we'll see an 8-12 page removable Vegas insert with some kind of spotlight on a pro, maybe a creative tip (not specific to Vegas), and of course the standard "it's the best in the world" marketing hype?

I don't think I could count on both hands and feet how many times I've seen that for FCP over the last 4 years. Especially in it's early years when it was nothing.

I'd have to say it could be better. I had never heard of Vegas before someone mentioned it on the pinnacle forums. I had seriously been looking around for something better for a while before then. I had Acid and Soundforge from Sonic Foundry but still was not aware of Vegas. <shrugs>

I'm not naive enough to think that I know all that happens (this is proof) but I would think there would have been more exposure than strictly from a competitors forum.

As an example, A LOT of people I have talked to, that don't do any kind of video editing, have heard of FCP. They think FCP has to be the best - yet none of them have heard of Vegas. I think there is something wrong there. Maybe this is not a true example of bad Vegas marketing but perhaps how good the Apple marketing appears to be. I tell them I love it but I can't always compete with Madison Ave.

The difference between Vegas and Sony is when Apple spends a lot of money on FCP, it does pay off with just video editors. The marketing is It's cool and hip to own a Mac. You're part of the creative class. People who don't edit video want to buy Mac's So Apple's FCP marketing spills over to the core brand. Sony Creative Software will probably never be in that position. That said, Apple's marketing is very slick and they have fantastic branding across the whole line of their products.

This debate about Vegas marketing may sound like whining, but I believe it is fundamentally a fear that if Vegas isn't successful enough, it could be swept under the carpet by Sony corporate.

We have specifically suggested that another ad on page 65 in DV magazine won't do it, especially if it is a bicycle ad like.no.other.

I have talked here in the past (many years ago) about the companies I co-founded, Retix and ISOCOR. In the former, we went from zero to #1 in the world (according to independent analysts) for one of the world's most competitive data communications products, and I feel no shame in taking a good portion of the credit for that, because of the unique advertising I created for these products, that ran as full page color ads all over the world and generated immediate sales in 52 countries.

Ditto for the second company which is now part of Critical Path, and from what I hear is still the most profitable part of the company. I had to triple or quadruple my revenues every year to grow it fast enough, and the only way I could do that was by not using traditional ad agencies, but by talking to enough customers to be able to write for them myself.

As I have written here many times before, Apple got lucky with FCP. They got dragged to success by Walter Murch, who had gotten really fed up with Avid's arrogance and was looking for an alternative. Apple was dragged kicking and screaming, but to no avail, Walter insisted, and he got help from an Apple fix-it company to deal with the worst problems. Apple said, "it can't be done, it isn't right., etc.," but after several years of this, Final Cut Pro was finally an acceptable solution for cutting film in Hollywood.

Now if only Vegas could get a Hollywood guy to drag Madison kicking and screaming into high end work... That could boost sales hundred-fold, maybe even approaching thousand-fold.

..and Roy, do you think we live only here in this forum? Not so. I'm also a premium subscriber on DMN (so I don't have to be bombarded with the ads), and I get all the pro pubs I need year round. Advertising Sound Forge is nice, but I wonder when was the last time they did a profitability analysis on that product.

Somehow it feels like a product for a different era (anyone else agree with me on this?), and I suspect they could make more money by spreading the functionality differently across their product lines.

In my pretty inexperienced marketing opinion...

On the consumer side, Vegas Movie Studio should focus on ease of use as its core message. Keep the ad simple and just focus on that. The reason to focus on ease of use is because (A) its one of Vegas' strengths (at least on the PC, ignoring iMovie) and (B) this is what most consumers are looking for; a lot of people don't want to waste time fighting with their computer / aren't that computer savvy. To flesh out that core message, you'd bring out points like Vegas is straight forward and intuitive, the Studio contains all the features you need like DVD burning, the program is stable because its not bloated by features, VMS will run on just any hardware, etc.

On the professional/prosumer side, one core message that might work could be that Vegas gets work done fast. That's what Vegas is good at / what differentiates it. Now not everyone has getting work done fast as their #1 need/want, but for Vegas' biggest markets I think it is definitely up there. Flesh it out by pointing out Vegas has all essential features (audio, color correction, etc.) in one program, or by doing case studies on news organizations (there HAS to be some news organization taking advantage of Vegas/XDCAM workflow).
FCP's marketing angle is that high-end people use it. I don't think it would make sense to go up against that (with a similar core message); it would be a losing battle. Avid's marketing schtick is that it is the industry standard. Some folks on this board would like to see Vegas take on some features geared for high-end broadcast work (i.e. 10-bit, GPU acceleration, etc.) just for the marketing benefits... but my current opinion is that it's not necessarily the best marketing angle / core message.

Right now, Vegas' core message seems to be that Vegas is "the essential media production toolset". The problem (IMHO) is that this core message is meaningless. You could say that any other product on the market is an essential media production toolset... or that it is like no other. Vegas' marketing needs to have a clear core message. Otherwise people will not remember what Vegas is (and it seems like a lot of people don't have clear ideas about what Vegas is, what it's good at). So basically, my opinion (for what it's worth!!) is that Vegas should focus on its ability to get work done fast. Keep it simple and to the point. Vegas: gets work done fast.

In more broadcast-oriented magazines, a print ad (or PR campaign) could focus on case studies on how Vegas helps news organizations edit material fast enough for the evening news, under the pressure of really short deadlines.
In wedding + event videography magazines, focus on how Vegas is used to do same day edits.
If the magazine is geared towards filmmaking, maybe do a case study on a guy like Victor Milt who used to have a six figure Avid system but now finds it so easy to edit on a normal computer. (Ok, you might need to change up the core message for different audiences.) But anyways, that might be a marketing campaign/approach that would work.

To throw an idea out there... perhaps Vegas' biggest marketing strength is that it's a good product and people like us try to evangelize others into using it and trying it out. We actually care enough about the product that we complain about it not being marketed well enough. That's bizarre if you think about it! Better marketing does little for Vegas users.

I'd have to disagree that better marketing wouldn't benefit the current users. If more people used Vegas there would be more of a market for plugins, third party apps and better hardware support. Hardware vendors and plugin makers don't want to spend R&D money for products with a limited market. If Vegas had more of a market share than Premiere, it would likely be PP that had limited application and hardware options.

Some folks on this board would like to see Vegas take on some features geared for high-end broadcast work (i.e. 10-bit, GPU acceleration, etc.) just for the marketing benefits...

Who one earth said it was for the marketing benefits????

I shoot mostly 10-bit and would very much like to edit that in Vegas, but alas that is not to be.

I save a lot of work time by using GPU acceleration in the other post production apps I use. God forbid that I should also save time in Vegas!

No, that should be just for marketing bullets... You gotta be kidding!

Just a few quick comments here...I attended NAB 2007, and specifically visited the Sony Software booth (right in front of Adobe), and met with one of the Vegas/Soundforge/DVD Architect demonstrators. He gave me a very GOOD on-on-one demonstration of all the capabilities of the new versions of the software. I am a current user of Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5, using DVD Lab Pro for making DVD's...The audio I do with Cool Edit (now Adobe's Audition).

I have been thinking about switching from Premiere to Vegas +DVD for about a year, and after going through the programs with this gentleman, and also attending one of the "official" demos, I decided to take the plunge and bought Vegas 7 +DVD, and SoundForge (upgrading to 9)...I also plan on buying Cinescore (to replace the Quick Sounds I use with Premiere). The marketing (at least at the NAB show), I think was VERY well done, especially with them handing out demo DVD's that contained fully functional 30 day trials of all the Sony software offerings...I think they should mass mail that DVD to anyone using other platforms...

What made me deside to switch? Simple really, the cost to upgrade Premiere Pro to v 2.0, plus the added cost of buying the surround sound plug-in for Premiere costs almost double what I paid for all the Sony software, and the native format support on the Sony software as well as the support for my Core 2 dual processor, brings my software fully up to current levels of technology. Premiere still does not recognise dual cores, and support for any format beyond DV is yet additional cost...

I'm looking forward to diving in and using the software, I'm sure I'll find things I like better with both companies software, but this should be an interesting, learning experience.

Regards....

Those are refreshing and honest comments.

JJK

JRZ,

Welcome on board! Glad you saw the benefits of Vegas, because it is unbeatable when you can use it, which for most people is always.

Glenn put it best. The core message should be that Vegas gets work done fast.

That is what Vegas does, and it does it well. This message needs to get out fast, before the others catch up.

An agency creation like "the essential media production tool set" or "like.no.other" has no strength, and neither one "sells to the stomach."

(Pinnacle is like no other in the number of bugs it offers unsuspecting users, so "like.no.other" is not necessarily even a positive quality.)

A successful marketing message sells to the stomach, and then immediately backs up the message with "post-decision" justifications.

"315 horsepower of Hemi goodness under the hood - and that's just the Fuel Pump!"