Sony, you've created a problem for all of us that you need to fix

johnmeyer wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:18 AM
Yesterday I responded to this post:

Extracting Video from a DVD image

As I responded, I realized that, thanks to the wonderful tools we have purchased from Sony, we are all creating a huge problem for ourselves:

Once we put video on DVD, there is no easy way to re-use it for the next project (unless we

This leads me to the following request for the folks at Sony Madison (SonyMAD):

PLEASE provide facilities to let us easily handle the importation of video from DVDs we've created. We've all bought these wonderful tools to create video and -- with DVDA -- to create DVDs. Over the coming months and years, all of our video is going to be archived on DVDs, not on tape. As a result, EVERYONE is going to need to re-use the video on their DVDs. Not just once in awhile, but always. (Yes, I know the quality is higher on DV tapes, and therefore I should store eveything on tape, but DVD can be darn good, and the reality is that often that will be the only source available).

While DVDs are great for viewing, as far as editing is concerned, what Vegas+DVD Arcitect has created is the perfect "Write-Only" media: You can write to it, but you can never read anything back.

Am I going to have to rely on tape forever? What good is that?

Comments

Jsnkc wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:32 AM
So why is it Sonic Foundrys Fault that you can't backup your programs? There is only one DVD authoring package that I know of that allows you to save your assets along with the DVD and that is Sonics "open DVD technology" I can't remember what software titles it is available with. It came out a couple years ago, but I don't think it's ever really caught on as a viable way of backing up your data. I'd say just wait a little while till the blue-rays come out, then you can save all your files on a shiny little 27GB disc.

Another point is why would you want to re-edit with files off of a DVD, they are compressed MPEG-2 files, I know I wouldn't want to edit with them, there would be a pretty bad quality loss if you took back your MPEG-2 files, re-editied them for another program, then re-encoded them back to a MPEG file. I'll stick with good ol tape, the best backup source available so far.
TorS wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:37 AM
I do not disagree, only I'm not as optimistic. I guess the media entertainment industry does not want to jeopardize its output by making it easy to get good video from DVDs.

For archiving: Render to wmv at at very high bitrate (experimentation is needed) and burn the files to DVD. That should produce good, editable material. What do you learned friends and experts think about that?
Tor
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:37 AM
Amen! Why blame Sony for your own short sightedness? No one in their right mind would ever want to re-edit compressed media formats, unless it was an absolute last resort.
Sony didn't create this problem, it's not a problem. It's simply something you wish was different.
I disagree tape is the best back up media though. I prefer hard drives. More expensive, but not by much.
DV tape/1 hour storage=$5.00 each
120 gig HD (89.00) /13 =$6.84 per hour of storage
On HD, I can store the veg, all related graphics, and anything else related to the project, not to mention the video, and plus I never have to recapture again. We charge the client for the HD, and store it in an antistatic bag.
Jsnkc wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:38 AM
If it isn't Uncompressed AVI or at least DV files I wouldn't want to edit with them unless I had not other option and the footage wasn't available in any other format.

RichMacDonald wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:43 AM
I don't think this is Sony's "fault", do you :-)

1) You know you can extract the vob files and get the mpg, right? I haven't tried it, but I hear you just need to add a ".mpg" to the file name. If this doesn't work, there are many tools for doing it. In your case, you'll be actually using them legally :-)

2) I use Dantz Retrospect to backup my projects. I can archive to CD or DVD or whatever. Works great. Sure it takes a lot of discs, but it works fine in the background while I'm on my next project.
Vulcan wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:43 AM
With DVD's being so chep why don't you save the unedited clips on disc? You will get some 20 minutes of clip on each disc.

Hans
Jsnkc wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:51 AM
Ok, you got me there Spot, drives are the best storage. We just get clients all the time that come in and say, you edited this program for us 5 years ago, can we go back and change something. It can be difficult at times to save everything on the hard drive. That is why I usually just save the veg file, and graphics or audio files and then just tell the client to keep the source tapes if they want to come back and re-edit later.

Still waiting for my 120 Terrabyte hard drive though :)

P.S. Love the Class on Demand series! I thought I knew everything about vegas till I sat down and watched all 6 hours of training. Anything in the works for another set???
johnmeyer wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:55 AM
Guys (and Gals) you are missing the point.

I even put a disclaimer in my post, stating that of course I would rather edit my original AVI source material. Obviously MPEG2 DVD isn't as good.

But the fact of the matter is that we are all collectively creating millions of DVDs each month. This is where the majority of all video pixels will reside. As a result, I can guarantee that each and every one of you -- without exception -- will have to deal with this problem. You'll need stock footage that is only available on DVD; a client will bring in material created by someone else; you can't find the tape, but you can find the DVD, etc.

You are right that Sony is not uniquely responsible for this. However, my point is that it is very short sighted of them to create tools that encourage us to put video on a medium from which we cannot easily extract it. I feel very similarly (and maybe you do to) about vendors that sell backup software for hard disks. You can put the entire contents of your hard disk on tape, CD, DVD, or other media. However, have you ever had to do a restore from this media to a new hard drive? I can just imagine some of you at that point, coming to me and saying "You should have backed it up to a hard drive. Who would ever want to read data from a tape? It is an inferior media." That is exactly how it sounds to me when some of you say that I'm crazy to want to re-use the video from the DVD. And, just as I would put the onus back on the backup software vendor to give me better restore tools, so too am I generating a strong request to Sony to let me do the same with the video that I have "backed up" to my DVDs.

johnmeyer wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:57 AM
See my second post above for a response to your responses.

johnmeyer
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/25/2003, 11:18 AM
DVD is still inferior to storage. MPEGS can be extracted now, so what's your point? The quality is diminished, but if you've lost the original project somewhere, you've got to deal with the compromise. Where do you draw the line for copyright protection? Where do you add the cost of creating keys so that only the author of the project can extract the media? Does the author pay an additional fee for the software because of the additional engineering that goes into this? What if the author loses the key?
You want a world where you can always go back to the source. Vegas provides that via recapture of tape, that's about the best way this is going to happen.
Yes, we are collectively creating millions of DVD's every month or so. I still don't see the point. You want clients to be able to duplicate these without your knowledge? I vote no, hence my cry for CSS encryption.
If you merely want to archive, then as suggested above, store as Win9 at a high bitrate. Blows MPEG2 outta the water, and is storable without worrying about anything else, and is editable.
As for me, I agree with Jsnkc, if it's not uncompressed, 4:2:2, or 4:1:1, I'm not going to want to use it anyway. Unless it's going to a lesser final output, like the web.
rmack350 wrote on 9/25/2003, 11:25 AM
This is like going back to your VHS dubs for source footage. Yes, you may have to do it some day but you and your clients need to know that this is just about the last choice and should be charged for as if it was data recovery from a failed hard drive.

DVD can be used for just straight data. But your point is that someday you'll be forced to salvage the footage from mpeg2 files on a product dvd. You need to present this to your client as what it is. Salvage.

Unless, of course, the source archiving was your responsibility. Then you just blew it and you cover your ass with subterfuge and discounted labor.

Rob Mack
Jsnkc wrote on 9/25/2003, 11:36 AM
That's why we only offer to store Master tapes and not raw footage. That way if the source footage gets misplaced it's the clients fault, not ours.
beerandchips wrote on 9/25/2003, 1:15 PM
Johnmeyer,

I completely see your point and totally agree. Mark my words. This will come to a major battle for the supreme court to rule on in about 5 yrs. or so.
They are happy to sell you a 300 dollar burner and 1 to 5 dollar discs. But they don't even want you to be able to copy your own stuff.
Chienworks wrote on 9/25/2003, 1:37 PM
Hmmm. Can't copy your own stuff?

I stick a DVD in my drive and in explorer drive H: now shows the directory of the disc. I drag those directories into my favorite burning program (or simply choose the Copy Disc option), insert a blank DVD in the burner, and i have a perfect copy. Works great!

For that matter, encryption doesn't even seem to matter. This works just as well for commercial DVDs as it does for the homemade ones. (Of course, i don't advocate distributing copies of commercial material!) It makes me wonder what all the encryption fuss is about. It seems to be a non-issue.

On the other hand, if you want to move the DVD material to a different format, that's another story. But as several have pointed out, the tools for this already exist. Even Vegas can read the video stream in VOB files natively, and the audio as well if it's PCM encoded.
PeterWright wrote on 9/25/2003, 7:59 PM
Another workaround - rather than try and edit MPEG2, play the DVD and connect the video and audio outs (s-video preferably) to your pass through device and capture as DV in Vegas.
AZEdit wrote on 9/25/2003, 9:32 PM
Why not make your final DVD for the client. I always make a back-up for my library for re-orders (or my replicator has my master there). At that time if you do not have the hard drive space or external drive space- make a data DVD for your source files..DV source files are fairly small compaired to uncompressed files- you may be able to fit a fair amount on a data DVD or two?? Hey- if you can't afford the external drives- why not use DVD's- they are getting as low as $49.50 for 50 disc spindle DVD-R 4.7 gig- these work great as data DVD's. Just a suggestion.....
BillyBoy wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:11 PM
I may as well jump in...

While using data DVD for backup is a good option, don't make it your only option. Call me paranoid if you want, but I make 3 copies of all finished projects on three differnt types of media, DV tape, a hard drive copy and a DVD.

While a DV tape can break (rare) its usually a safe but a little pricy and limited size wise. A DVD is good, cheap, but if something does go wrong it is next to impossible to recover data from a "damaged" DVD or CD for that matter. So if that's you only medium you backup to at least make a couple copies. While a pain, a hard drive is still the best option. Large, can be portable and you can recover... usually. Being well aware of Murphy's Law, I don't want to take chances. That's why I make 3 copies, each on a different medium for all my important stuff.
johnmeyer wrote on 9/25/2003, 10:22 PM
Thanks to everyone for their responses. Putting the AVI files on DVD is not a bad idea. Hooking up the DVD and playing it back via analog could also be useful, but I actually do know how to get video off a DVD and back into Vegas. In fact, just yesterday I posted in this forum the steps required to do that. So, the issue isn't whether it can be done (it can), but whether it is something that should be part of the workflow, and therefore something that can be done easily, by anyone.

Clearly, the vast majority of those that have posted in this thread don't want this capability, either because they think it will make it easier to copy their work (which, for the entire DVD, can now be done with the push of one button, even for commercial DVDs); or they don't think the quality is good enough (because they come from a commercial or broadcast background).

On this last point, I feel a sense of déjà vu. I was heavily involved in the desktop publishing revolution back in the 1980s. The professional typesetters all turned their nose up at us because we didn't have absolutely everything needed to exactly match the quality that 400 years of development on traditional printing processes could produce. The thing they all missed, of course, was that we could do 80-90% of the quality, and do it faster, cheaper, and do it yourself.

The laser printer (which enabled the desktop publishing revolution) had quality that was no match for a Linotronic. However, it was good enough for many, many jobs.

The exact same thing can be said for DVD.

It is the low cost "printing" medium for video. And the analogy doesn't end there. While most typesetters initially looked at laser copies as only good enough for proofing (reading), very quickly many of them realized they could paste them up and use them for camera-ready copy (writing). I am making the same argument here for DVD. Many of you see them only as an output medium, but I think you are "blinded" by years of experience which has taught you that there are certain standards that must be maintained.

Now, I am not arguing that DVD is going to replace tape. No way. At least not the current generation of DVD. It was the same in desktop publishing: The typesetting machine is still being used today (actually, direct to plate now, but that's another story), and the people that know how to operate it are still in business. However, almost all the typeseting shops, and their corporate equivalents now do huge business at the lower end, and many, like the quick copy operators, do business exclusively in this area.

My final point back to Sony is that Vegas is obviously not a product for the broadcast crowd (I think that is Avid). Instead, you are selling (I think) to the equivalent of the quick copy operators. And I can guarantee that your customers will increasingly need to be able to easily and seemlessly take bits and pieces of video from an existing DVD and incorporate them into their next project.

johnmeyer