Nat, you are correct that this is where the conversation was headed. The problem is prior to this, when someone offers their advice and the backing information behind it, is "if you do professional work, then you would understand why." This is the lamest backing information you can back up your viewpoint with in my opinion. It tells me, you have no idea why you're using the equipment that you're using other than, "well all the professionals, use it and they told me I have to use it to get "professional" results. There are many examples out there that show that "professional" opinion can be wrong time and time again, and it continues to be wrong because no one questions it, and it becomes fact by proxy.

I will give you an example, that directly relates to this topic. In the early recording days it became a "professional" fact that if you wanted to get a professional sounding mix you had to have a pair of Yamaha NS-10 monitors and you had to have a piece of tissue hanging over the tweeters. So eventually you heard every professional saying the same thing, and if you didn't have those NS-10's with the tissue hanging over the tweeters then you couldn't achieve professional results. The pros that had this viewpoint, if you asked them, to support that fact they couldn't give you any really solid information or it was theory at best as to why they where using the NS-10's with Kleenex hanging over the tweeters. The reason, why this fact came into existance, was that there was a mixing engineer that had mixed a hit, that became the plateau to strive for. Well a popular magazine had did an interview with this engineer and they took his picture which was published in the magazine article. In the background of the picture was a pair of NS-10's with Kleenix taped to the top and then drooped over the tweeters of the speaker. So everyone assumed that to get professional results like his mix they must have the same setup. So many, many people where buying NS-10's and hanging tissue over the tweeters and using that to mix. Well years later, there was another interview with this engineer and he came clean, and said, "You know I actually did the mix in our Studio A, which didn't have NS-10's at all." "The fact is when the guy came in to do the interview with me I was doing a long session in our Studio B, using the NS-10's." "Well after a long period of listening to those NS-10's, the harshness of the tweeters where becoming painful to my ears." "So I took some tissue that was sitting on the desk and drooped it over the tweeters to cut down on the painful high frequecies."

True story and why I think this is pertanent because you will see similar uninformed facts being spread in this post and BB is pointing this out, and again when they have to back their viewpoint up with facts, it's always the professional use, professional results that is used in backing up their viewpoint. I wouldn't be surprised to see a pair of NS-10's sitting in their studio with Kleenix hanging over the tweeters, which they swear by also to get "professional" results. Further more I think this is discouraging information to the forum as a whole. People will get discouraged because they can't aford to buy those $3000 speakers, or professionally calibrated video monitor, so they automatically assume they can't achieve professional results because of the tools they are using. As BB pointed out, it's not the tool you use, but this does assist, but more importantly it's the person behind the tool in combination of the knowledge they have and experience. This is the reason, I will usually back BB's opinion, because he is challenging you to think and it's actually more productive than constantly playing the "professional" card which holds no water.

I apologize for the name calling. It was a knee jerk reaction to what I considered very rude behavior in what seemed to be a very constructive debatable discussion and your remarks where not on point.

"I apologize for the name calling. It was a knee jerk reaction to what I considered very rude behavior in what seemed to be a very constructive debatable discussion and your remarks where not on point."

Apologies taken. Really, the last thing I want to do here is fight so I'll be more careful.

Sorry, I can't resist. One more example using accounting. If you would have asked the typical person on the street a few years ago what an "audit" meant, the general view would have been along the lines that the auditors looked at some company's books, found nothing wrong and everything was peachy. The auditors will even certify the results as accurate. <wink>

As recent events with worldcom and Enron showed, that isn't anything but urban myth. Professional opinions (auditor's in this case) even with extensive training and experience can get it totally wrong. I won't bore you with the details why.

So when somebody throws out the "I'm a professional" line next time as an excuse for doing what they do, remember Enron and what then was the world's largest accounting firm saying yea, this is an accurate accounting of Enron's financinal positon.

So when I challenge someone's opinion, and they come back with "I'm a professional" as the sole basis of their opinion I probably got a big grin on my face. So, when someone says I do such and such, don't just say you do because its the "professional" thing to do, explain the reasons, then, we can have a meaningful discussion why maybe you're right, and maybe not.

I must have missed out on a lot of edited posts, because nowhere in the thread has anyone recommended anything as costly as 3K speakers, and no where has anyone said "I'm a professional so you should listen to me" and in fact, nowhere has anyone said "I'm a professional." Period.

The fact remains that your quality of work rises with the quality of gear you use, as you learn to use a specific piece of gear and learn what it lacks, you move up as a general rule. So, you start cheap and grow with the product or tool. In the process, you'll learn what is missing and what is not. You fill those gaps. For a newbie to spend 3k on audio monitors is absurd, IMO, because they don't know if the 3K fits their needs. On the other hand, to buy a set of 99.00 speaks is equally absurd.
When shopping, take a CD you know well. Listen to ALL price ranges, even though you may have settled on a budget-conscious purchase range. Then you'll have a good idea of what compromises you're making. It's better to spend a little more than a little less, because speaker monitors aren't like DV tape. You don't change them often, and depending on their quality, maybe never. I love my Hothouses, I waited a long, long time to afford them, and now they travel with me if I've got a lengthy stay in any studio. Because they are a part of my personal arsenal, and I've been successful with them. For my video, my Mackie 626's are my best choice, they sound awesome, and for mixing 5.1 and getting solid, accurate mixes from them is fast and easy. Because I know them; not because they cost me a lot of cash.
The short of the message is to buy what you can best afford, maybe buy a little more than you can afford, because if you buy right, you'll have an investment that will last a long, long time, and be a major part of your entire workflow and working comfort and confidence.

... mmm ...

Spot,
Just incase you overlooked the professional card being thrown out here's some quotes for you. My $3k speaker comment was an analogy to make a point, I didn't think you would have taken it verbatim. I will try and be more acurate in my analogies for your sake next time. It's ironic to me, because if you read back, in summary we are all really saying the same thing, but for some reason you feel the need to defend yourself.

"Look, we all know you aren't a professional and your "real world" is incredibly different than mine. And, believe it or not, virtually everything you see on TV or hear on CD was produced on professional equipment by professionals, not by an amateur with a Walmart TV and Soundblaster speakers.

If you don't have something constructive to say, stay out of the thread. When we want the consumer, "end user" opinion about something, we'll ask you.

"Professionals in all walks of life have tools that they rely on every day because they know that they help them do the job right the first time."

"if you DON'T have good near-field speakers you will not even hear what you have! You will edit and mix like a deaf mute, you will be up the Kyber without the proverbial paddle."

". It's one of the first things that a pro, or at the least someone who knows what he/she's doing, will undertake on any shoot."

Rednroll, I don't know why you made it seem as if DSE made all of those posts. The truth is that he made only one and that was the very last one (It's one of the first things...). In it, he was clarifying what I said about the importance of a good video monitor on a shoot.

I recognize that you're extremely knowledgeable about audio but you've admitted in the past that video is your weakness. I was simply trying to point out that I (like most shooters I know) always take along a good field monitor to serve as my picture reference.

Mike

Rednroll,

Just for the sake of accuracy, the first two lines you quoted and seemingly attributed to Spot were actually written by me and directed squarely at BillyBoy. Spot had nothing to do with them.

John

Johnny, you just don't get it. If you and Spot stopped throwing the "I'm a professional" card around constantly in some vain effort to impress the rest of us, just maybe the noise level would go down.

Hint: understatement is more powerful that endless boasting. Tonight, Oh God Two was on cable. In it, George Burns playing the part of God hands out his business card. A plain white card, small unassuming text, simply says 'god'.

If either you or Spot were He, you would not only need 100 point type on your business card, but gold leave, a marching band everywhere you went and a very large neon sign behind you announcing your arrival.

Understand yet Mr. "professional"?

Of course you don't.

I understand Mike and I never said they where Spots messages, so if I said that please point out where I did. I answered his post of "no where has anyone said "I'm a professional so you should listen to me" I'm just trying to point out that these comments can be interpreted as being offensive in nature because they where focused at an objectionable viewpoint and basically waving your finger at that objectional viewpoint, in a manor like "I'm better than you are." Notice in all my posts of the information I posted, not once did I have to mention, This is how a "pro" does it. (and yes I am paraphrasing, so please don't take that verbatim). People can surely get pro results without working the same way or having the same equipment as a pro. To think otherwise is just naive at best. We ALL started out as not being a "professional". Just because I don't use the same tools as you, or have the latest shiny new gizmo on the block, doesn't necessarily mean I can't produce a better level of end product as you, or maybe my client is just happy with the sub pro work I'm doing and they just prefer working with me because of my more professional knowledgable personality. There is no standard in a workflow or tools used that make one person more pro than another, so people quit trying to tell me how a "pro" does things because it doesn't exist and it gets tiring hearing the same phrases, reworded differently. Ok, you're a pro we get it, why do you have to keep reminding me you're a pro and I'm not because I don't agree with everything you said? If you disagree with what I have to say, ok that's fine, then debate me with facts of why you disagree, and maybe we'll both learn something from one another.

You see Mike even in your own last statement:
"I was simply trying to point out that I (like most shooters I know) always take along a good field monitor to serve as my picture reference."

Here again, you're not telling me anything but what "most" people do. That tells me nothing. If you want to convince me of something then tell me "Why" most shooters do this, and tell me of the "Consequences" I may run into if I don't do this. Now this would tell me something, I can chew on. Telling me everyone I know does it this way, tells me nothing. See my example about the NS-10 monitors and why they became an industry standard. Even Spot mentions in one of his posts how many studios used the NS-10's and how t he thinks they sound like crap, but people made good use of them because they became "familiar" with their sound. Well, that was my whole point in saying you could achieve pro results with non pro equipment and then he says "I'd have to disagree that one could mix reasonably well on cheap speakers". Hmmmm? Now there's some conflicting information if I ever heard any. NS-10's sound like crap but where a "standard", but you can't mix reasonably well on cheap speakers. Well at least I told why the NS-10's where a "standard", maybe he'll do us a favor and explain to us why you can't mix reasonably well on cheap speakers, especially a pair of good sounding cheap speakers, and I've certainly have heard some cheap speakers that sound better than the industry standard NS-10's.

Since I get the opportunity to work at a good number of audio studios, with all sorts of monitors and other equipment, my only recommendation to the "What speakers should I use" would be "Whatever you like."

(Actually, whatever makes ME sound better.)

Speakers and Microphones are like musical instruments - they all "Color the sound", This is not a bad thing, since so-called "Calibrated Reference" devices are almost universally hated by everyone except those who need raw data for scientific and engineering uses.

Some of the so-called "Top" studios I've worked at did the final mix on Auratones, never bothering to listen on their much-more-expensive speakers. At another "Hollywood" studio, the engineer and producer proclaimed that the "Auratone mixers", were inexperienced kids who couldn't figure out how to mix for smaller rooms and speakers while listening in an almost perfect mixing environment. So far as I could tell, the "Auratone Mixers" weren't any younger, or more inexperienced.

The only general rule I've established, is that, if the mixing is being done on JVCs, the mixer (or the person who specified the speakers) was working with Rock&Roll for a very long time and is now somewhat deaf - Not a bad thing, since we all need to find ways to make up for our deficiencies. Everything else is a matter of personal taste.

Some producers claim that mixing should be done on speakers and an acoustical environment which simulates what the final listener would hear. Others have an opposite opinion - the mix should be on a much better system so that the producer and engineer can hear any possible "flaws".

So far as I can tell, final results are determined more by the talent of the engineer and producer than the equipment - however, qualified people will make sure they have the equipment they need to do the job.

Travis ("Professional" voice talent.)
www.announcing.biz

What I find interesting is how personal preference colors much of what we do. On one hand we hear one guy say he knows when it sounds right and has some reference and claims the reason he wants higher end equipment is to hear anything that may be off and therefore have an opportunity to correct it. On the surface this seems like a good idea, yet I'll wager the average age here in the forum is somewhere from mid 30's to late 40's and we all know that by that time your hearing, especially of higher frequencies is already pretty far in decline. So that begs the question, for those in the quest for the holy grail of audio, shouldn't you really hire someone much younger that hasn't lost as much of his/her hearing range to hear what you no longer do? That's really just a whimsical comment but it does illustrate there are no absolutes and nobody is ever going to agree on what makes the ideal sweet sound or sparkling video. That I think is a good think.

Douglas, John, Mike, et al, since I've opted to employ the Ignore This User feature, life here in the forum has been much better, reading threads is far more enjoyable and a whole lot less stressful.

I implore you all to use the Ignore This User option on those individuals you find offensive. It's no different than the water filters we use to filter all the crap out of the water we drink.

Yes, the uninformed forum members will still be victimized by certain people and their posts. But take heart, it won't take long for them to see the offenders for what they are. Then they, too, will begin to use the Ignore This User option.

Would that life itself had such a filtering option!

BB,
you're absolutely right, there is no 'perfect sound' or 'perfect mix'. I don't think any recording engineer would disagree on that one. Over the decades there's been different styles come in and out of vogue as well.
However we were I thought talking about audio for video and that's a somewhat different issue to mixing rock or an orchestra.
Much of the audio that ends up in video is location sound at the level most of us work at. No one would disagree about the value of getting rid of that which shouldn't be there, noise, hum, camera noise, motor noise, room resonances etc. If your monitors are so cheap that you cannot hear these things then you're in trouble. If your video monitor is so poor you can't tell what's in focus again you're in trouble. These aren't subjective evaluations either, you can measure these things, with video scopes or spectrum analysis. It's just a lot easier and cheaper to do it with half decent monitors, either video or audio.
How I start with audio for video is listening with headphones to the raw track, they're great for hearing the things that shouldn't be there. Maybe at that stage I can't hear them on the speakers but I know from past experience if I don't clean them up they'll come back to bite me when I start adding compression or eq.
I'll add one comment that no one else seems to have mentioned, good speakers are far harder to engineer than a good video monitor, in fact to get a correct reponse in both the frequency and time domain over the range of the human hearing is simply impossible, all those nice looking flat graphs you see tell you very, very little about how speakers perform, decay spectrograhs come closer and if they're done with narrow averaging windows you'll see some really bad peaks and troughs, makes you wonder how we get to hear anything at all.
I'd agree with most of what's been said on both sides of this argument except for one thing. You can take the approach that says so long as the client doesn't complain what does it matter. Or you can strive to do a better job than the client expected. The latter is how my business seems to be growing.
I had a simple job, just a demo tape for a performer, he would have been happy with a handheld Hi8 camera with the sound recorded by the camera mics. Instead I did the full bit for him, what to me at least sounded like a good clean mix with sharp video. Now he didn't pay me a penny more BUT every agency he takes that tape to has asked him for my business card and everyone of them remembers him as the guy with a decent video, so far he's picking up work and I look like getting a lot more as well.
Another fairly basic point that hasn't been mentioned. Our eyes and ears are instruments too. They need calibrating. If all we see is fuzzy video and all we hear is muffled audio we start to accept that as the norm. In fact when our brains don't get high frequency input from our ears, over time they stop lisetening for it. So yes, our ears loose high frequency response with age, not feeding them high frequencies accelerates the process. Much of our hearing loss can be delayed by the use of hearing aids, that's why, in this country at least, the goverment is funding free hearing tests for everyone every 12 months.
Bob.

Bob, please forgive me, but I could not let this pass without addressing it, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the real subject of your post.

<RANT ON>

... in this country at least, the goverment is funding free hearing tests for everyone every 12 months.

The truth of the matter is, regardless of what the country, such programs are not "free" (remember, "there is no free lunch"). These and like programs are being paid for by the citizens through heavy and oppressive taxation. Therefore, it's not the government funding the hearing test, it's you and your neighbors and all the Aussies that are footing that bill.

My point being, unrelated as it is, that we, where ever we live, need to get the idea out of our heads that government programs are "free". They are not! It's nothing more but socialism, pure and simple.

<RANT OFF>

One aspect not mentioned here is the response of the human ear---each persons ears are a bit different. I am 64 years old and my response has changed dramatically from (40hz to 16.6KHZ) to (20hz to 12.5khz) in old age.
The 40hz was reduced to 20hz because of a subwoofer addition. So I tend to pump up the high's a bit on everything. I do notice that on the latest John Fogarty CD that he seems to have about 4 different voices with some of the tracks copied from his DVD Premonition that do not sound like the DVD. Sounds to me like they compressed lower frequencies out of his voice to make it sound younger and it is also very obvious something was changed. The best mixed DVD I have ever had is Eric Claptons Crossroads.

JJK

"Douglas, John, Mike, et al, since I've opted to employ the Ignore This User feature"

Lol, yeah please do that. That way when you start playing your professional trumpet,thus tuting your own horn and someone points out how you're directly contradicting your own professional "opinion", then you'll be none the wiser when the rest of the forum walks away with the truth in the matter, and your professional ego doesn't walk away all bruised up. Time to rally the troops huh Jay?......Hey guys here's what we're going to do ok? "duhhh....ok coach, that RnR and BB, we'll show them." Sounds like a plot stolen right out of a Scooby Doo episode....... "and if it wasn't for those darn kids pointing out the obvious....."

Oh Jay I almost forgot to mention, thanks for stoping by and visiting us. Maybe after you have read a few more threads of information that's been posted you can stop in and offer your own advice on these types of subjects next time rather than calling a timeout to rally the troops together. It's ok though we understand, sometimes when your advice is called out in contradicting yourself, your ego does take a backseat for a minute, and we know there's nothing like a good support group to bring you right back.

"One aspect not mentioned here is the response of the human ear"

Actually BB did point that out too, but thanks for mentioning it again, because it reinforces the whole horn tuting got to have this equipment or else.

Hun, what's that, can you speak up a little?

File under getting older.

I'm getting a little long in the tooth myself, having recently celebrated my 59th birthday. Loud sounds don't seem as loud as they once did. A real ego crusher event happened a couple years back when the cable guy came. He asked, you always keep the TV that loud? For years we had a grandfather clock downstairs. At night from upstairs as you drifted off to sleep it was comforting to hear it every quarter hour. Now when I'm listening specifically to try and hear it, I barely can.

Jay,

That's why he used the term funding. I'm sure he understands how the Austrailian health care system works, I'm sure he is familiar with the Austrailian Medicare Levy. Why do you react like he's waving a red flag? At the very least it's just rude. What do you care what health services Austrailia provides for its citizens? Are you trying to remove the scales from the eyes of benighted Aussies? Why do you assume they need a lecture on how their government collects and spends money? Austrailia has one of the highest standards of living in the world. They must be doing something right.

I know someone who just back moved to Austrailia to raise his kids because he was able to get good schooling and good healthcare without being rich. His wife is from Pennsylvania and she agreed.

Funny Buster, people complaining about others being rude are often rude themselves. Its such a hoot!

"Mario,

No need to get defensive, BillyBoy likes to have a signal to noise ratio of about 1:1. Once you realize that you can just tune it out."

busterkeaton

I never tune anybody out. Half the fun of visiting this forum is watching the various personalties. For example, monitoring the hypocrisy level.

... veggies, veggies ...