Interesting stuff!

I had a little search around the 'net to look for a plugin that didn't install a demo with it, and found this for free:

http://www.pacificsoundcraft.com/software/directx/stereomixer/

As an alternative to Gpan. They also have a half decent gate there (free) which includes attack, hold, release, look-ahead, gain-reduction

cool, and it sorta meters too

Thanks Pipe,
some good stuff there that I think is going to save my bacon on a recent shoot. I got a feed from the desk of the tap mics but as the stage wasn't wooden there wasn't to much 'tap' if you know what I mean and the mics were picking up a lot of the music, hopefully the same technique will let me get some good sounding taps out of the mush.
Bob.

"We've left our old studio and have now set up everything into 4 mobile 16 space racks. We record bands at shows, at their rehearsal area, or wherever they want. Pretty fun!"

So Pipeline, are you no longer with that Protools studio in Phoenix? Sorry to go off topic but I was curious.

drbam

The crazy owner went all Branch Davidian on us because we wouldnt drink his philosophical kool-aid

We rented a Uhaul and got our stuff out in about three hours

After that I was just like, lets get some racks, mobilize this stuff and then not worry about having to find a spot for a while. Its been going pretty good! Im borrowing a splitter on friday and going to try recording a show

Alright we got our drums gated, but man that bass guitar is interfering with the groove of the

kick. Worse, the timing is so far off that it can actually sound like the kick is flamming! Big

soggy, undefined, messy bottom, YUK

Were going to use a traditional trick, with some newfangled tools to clean this up.

1. Create a buss called "bass guitar". In its fx chain place first Wave Hammer, then Gpan

2. Set gpan left gain to 0.0 pan to center, right gain -inf pan to wherever

3. Zero out wavehammer completely and bypass the volume maximizer

4. Render a copy of the gated kick buss from part 1 call it "kick trigger" (some extra buss

routing options in vegas would really be helpful here, to avoid this step)

5. Move the kick trigger track ahead 5 mSec, pan it hard right and assign its output to bass

guitar buss

6. Pan the bass guitar track hard left and assign its ouput to bass guitar buss

7. Set wavehammer: threshold 0, ratio 12:1, gain zero, scan mode Peak, uncheck auto gain

compensation, and check use longer look ahead, attack zero, release 80mSec, Smart release 0

8. Play the song. Start lowering the threshold so that the bass guitar disappears whenever the

kick is hit.

9. Mess with the attack and release controls until it you really cant hear the process working.

Once you get this going right, it will sound like the kick drum is "playing the bass guitar". The

kick and bass will no longer be doubling up and you will be amazed just how much low end you can

leave in the kick and bass guitar tracks without muddying up. Also the song will sound MUCH MUCH

tighter and the bass guitar and kick drums will sound much more in sync.

The key here is to keep messing with the kick trigger track's position on the timeline, the

threshold control of wavehammer and the release time in wavehammer.

BE SURE to do any tonal and especially compression FX to the bass on the bass track itself.

Putting a dynamic range device AFTER the ducker will render the effect useless.

Heres the situation: No matter how much beating and threatening you do, you can only coax one sort of kind of acceptable take out of the singer, and then only by using every stretch, crossfade and slicing trick you know in Vegas. Forget double or triple tracking ANYTHING!

Yet he wants to sound doubled or Ozzied or something. Here we go.

1. Bust out your calculators again and look for some short delay times at least 15 msec apart but related to the song. For a 120 bpm song, 32 and 62 msec looks about right

2. Render out the vocal track so the slices, crossfades and stretches dont mess your vegas mix up, save as a new *.veg and delete the old track

3. Right click the fresh new vocal track and choose "duplicate track" twice so you have the original plus two copies

4. slide one copy 32 msec late and the other 62 ms late, pan one right somewhere and one left somewhere

5. Right click the copy tracks and pitch shift one up +10 to +20 cents and shift the other down -10to -20 cents. Be sure to preserve length!

6. For the shifted up track, place wavehammer in the insert fx, and set attack 0, release around a quarter note, 250msec in this case, but a little less, you can time this one with your snare drum to dial it in. Set ratio to 2:1 and look for a swing down to 10 dB of reduction

7. For the shifted down track, you can use the stock sony track compressor as the attack time will be longer, about the same distance as the tracks are apart, so start with an attack setting of 29 msec or so. Release as FAST as you can get without distorting the waveform, in fact you may want to filter out the lows to keep the compressor from triggering on them. Set ratio again to 2:1 and look for a 10dB swing. You will find a MUCH different behaviour from this setup than the other track

8. Even out the volumes from the copy track

9. Assign all three vocal tracks to a buss and set the relative levels between them starting with the copies pretty low.

10. Play the whole song, get the original vocal at a comfortable level, just a little under the level where you would say " ahh this is about right just need a little compression to bring it up". But dont put a compressor on it, yet, and maybe you wont need one at all

11. Push up the copy tracks, until you hear the vocal sitting easier and always hearable. Push it up further for more effect till it sounds like Bark at the Moon

12. Try some giant eq, like +9 at 12-15khz on the copy tracks for more of a Rush/Boston vocal sound

Some good tips with that kick, but then some not so ideal.

Get yourself some nice preamps (key element to prof recordings), some decent mics (you don't need U87's across the board)... and then get yourself some better plugins.

www.wavers.com very musical plugs once you've worked with them for a while. I also agree with constraint factor - just because you have plugs doesn't mean you should use em all.

thats cheating

Hahah.

If anyones interested, Im putting this up with pictures at http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=266477#266477

"If anyones interested, Im putting this up with pictures at http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=266477#266477"

That's excellent pipe!! Have you thought about creating a full Vegas mixing tutorial (book/DVD)? Your manner of demonstrating and describing the process is far better than any 3rd party tutorials related to Sony apps I've seen so far! Thanks for taking the time to put this up.

drbam

pipelineaudio: mixing/mastering demystified.
definitely sounds like a book title to me.

i have found that some of the other books on Vegas try to explain everything. such as the basic features and every new feature of a particular version of vegas as a result they have so much ground to cover that they dont devote as much time to JUST audio or to mixing and mastering.

i think you should give it a go. printed materials are the easiest for me to study. i think the wire-o bound books, and step by step instructions are winning combination.

even if you have to collaborate with those Vasst folks, i think it would work. your certianly have the credibility from the perspective of the audio users on the Vegas forum.


Ziggly

I'll think about it, in the meantime hope you have seen rednroll's microphone article

BTW I know NOTHING about mastering, it would just be mixing and tracking. That last step I can only get in trouble, and leave it to those who know much better.

So these tracks recorded in the band's little space are a bit closed in at times. Kind of all sitting on top of each other.

We need some SPACE, some feeling of "there-ness" and some tricky way to put the idea in people's heads that these instruments and elements are different distances away from the hypothetical listener

Plugin reverbs .... need I say more? Didn't think so. On the plus side we DO have Accoustic Mirror, probably the one set of code that launched this convolution revolution more than any other, but its CPU use might be a little on the harsh side for any realistic track count in a mix.

Like everything else, we got a tool for that. So lite on system resources that you don't have to shut your favorite internet exploder windows off.

Picture some rooms you would LIKE for different elements of your band to be in.
Since its my imagination, I'll pick some stuff off the golden ratios. Here I'll go with a 1 X 1.14 X 1.39 ratio. 18 feet high X 20'6" wide X 25' long. I was never good at math so sue me if I got this wrong.

Now Im going to say I stuck some drums in here. The center of my snare drum is about 15 feet from the front wall, 8 feet from the right wall, and about four feet from the ground.

The peanut gallery may be writing this down and plotting my demise and all manner of flaws in my logic. Hey, you're right, I'm whacked, but this usually WORKS, which is the difference between me (eventually) getting paid and me NOT getting word of mouth customers. Then again maybe people just come by to make fun of my scalloped neck guitar, who knows.

If we really think about it here, and yet really simplify it at the same time, we have these "facts":

When I hit the snare, its noise will travel 15 feet to the front wall, come 15 feet back and smack me in the face

It will also travel 10 feet to the back wall, and back 10 feet to me

Also 12 feet to the left

And 8 feet to the right

14 feet to the ceiling

And don't forget, 4 feet to the ground

All these noises reach my ears at different times * AND DIFFERENT VOLUMES * and really let me know that Im in a "space".

How can we put that to work for us?

Start calculating these distances to become miliseconds, using the speed of sound as your guide. Easiest way here is one of the jillions of distance to time calculators around the net. Google found me this one pretty quick http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm. Or you can just multiply 0.91 msec per foot.

Lets plug some numbers in. Remember to double the results, to bring the sound BACK to your ears!

So to the front wall and back, 15 feet thats 27 mSec
Back wall 18 mSec
Left wall 22 mSec
Right wall 14 mSec
up : 25 mSec
Down: 4 mSec

So lets space out!

Set up an assignable fx with Sony Multitap Delay

Click on the word "pan" in the channel header and choose the FX Send the delay is on and send your snare to it at a decent level

Now open up Sony's Multitap delay

Set Dry Out to -inf, Number of taps to 6

Enter in your delay times from above

Pan the left and right walls pretty hard, but don't be afraid to pan the others a bit as well too.

If you REALLY want to get technical, the inverse square law states, that every time you double your distance from a source it theoretically drops 6dB, so you could factor that into your tap gain settings. Here is an easy place to do it http://www.mcsquared.com/dbframe.htm

For most purposes its just safe to say the short ones will be louder than the long ones. You can pretend there's carpet on the floor so the reflection from the ground can be quieter.

It would be crazy tasty if we could put a separate eq on each tape and really try and spell out the material on each surface. Make life simple and just start playing around with the low pass filter in the multi-tap delay. You'll usually end up around 4khz for a "woody" room type sound, and way higher or off for some real sparkle

And/Or, insert Sony Track EQ after the delay and have some real fun dreaming up your spaces!

You can get nutz and enter the room dimensions into a room mode calculator. In this case we see we will have some bass bumps around 170hz, 220hz and 260hz set some fairly narrow Q's and take out a bit of these, if the sound muddies up too much. Leave that last band for a gentle low pass filter.

Start sending elements of your mix to your new "room" to taste.

Create other rooms for other instruments, imagine different materials, steal some RT60 curves off the web for the EQ. The possibilities are wide open!

Yes again, the above is filled with all sorts of logic errors, and fatal flaws. Thats great. But don't knock it till you try it!

i just saw your site http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=266477#266477
nice work pipeline

ziggly

thanks for the kind words ziggly!

Would you be so kind as to check out my site http://members.cox.net/pipelineaudio/Exciting%20the%20Snare.htm

Im trying a new format out with audio examples and would love some feedback on whether or not this type of tutorial would be helpful

>>>BTW I know NOTHING about mastering, it would just be mixing and tracking. That last step I can only get in trouble, and leave it to those who know much better.<<<

Just to note: the mixdown is even more important than the mastering. It dictates the final outcome of any mastering session. So since most home studios allow the user to be so close to the mixdown, I almost always suggest trying a mastering pass yourself (yes, even with modest monitor and room setups. However, if you have a completely poor monitor and room setup, then you may be the candidate to always take it elsewhere.

But then again with the above scenario and fear of mastering due to monitor and room inadequacies...I would question the actual overall quality of the mixdown. So I consider the mixdwn and master as one process really).

I usually see them as two separate arts.

Well, I'm saying it is and it isn't. Mastering will follow the mixdown process obviously, but if you feel you're mixing enviro is set now then I'd say try a mastering pass yourself once. Don't place the mastering process on too high a pedestal (sorry - '05 real-world response). it's tough to go further as I don't don't people proficinecies.
Basically if you're not sure of your mastering cap and enviro, then I would also question the mixdown as well. Proper mixdown usually = best final mastering outcome.

I know cats who've adopted the mix and master process nearly as one now with incredible results (given their experience with today's tools and time and care taken with each project).
Just the same, I think it's foolish if one takes it elsewhere for mastering and you aren't working WITH THEM on the final output (just don't drive them nuts and be ready for the added costs when things get stretched out. A so-so mix for example can stretch out the mstr proc.

To the advanced: You're closer to the project and overall goal you want to achieve (and you're confident with addressing any monitor/room issues along with mastering experience). I'd say ya gotta have that moreso than the overspoken and perverbial "hrdwr/mastering tools". Only time and experience will dictate the level of success. Just as important, if it's music...it REALLY helps to KNOW music (all of it, all genres).
One great rule of thumb (and duh to some here) is louder does not = better.

But, there are those that just plain shouldn't dive (overlooking the key ingredients), so...there ya go. Maybe most fall in that category, i dunno...only you can say.

In answer to the thread though and mixdowns in vegas, I would address your mon/room and invest in some better plug-ins first (if you're getting serious).

Jaydee,

I believe you have totally missed the mark concerning pipelineaudio. He is anything but a novice. He makes his living as an audio engineer.

He simply started this thread as an endeavor to discover/exhibit what can be done using ONLY the "stock/native" Sony plugs.

Do some research on him here and on the net.

MJ

I know who Pipe is, we've been in many an argument and agreeance in the past (maybe you should research).
I'm in the same line of work (there's a lot of people in this scenario here, check it out).

Yes, I understand his post and replies (how was that not clear?). I'm just saying that if you are getting serious I would first address the room/monitoring and it's needs...then most would bag on the stock plugins and rarely ever look back as it's time to invest a bit more.
Then there's the little detail of experience (that depends on you and can't be discussed. Just like a musician has to practice and gain experience, so does the eng).
But for average/little use and needs the stock plugs can work well enough. I think that much is obvious.
My reply still stands.