Thank you I will do so right away.
Marty

Calling all geeks:

Consider hiring an experienced storyboard artist instead of buying yet another piece of software to learn.

Last year I was trying out the latest storyboard packages, but I thought they all got in the way of my creative thinking.

I found a compositing student who had good storyboards in his portfolio, and gave him a first script. After two iterations I was blown away by the result. Fantastic results and very affordable. He had a great eye for what the camera could see in a scene.

Save money by forgetting about painting, just use pen sketches as color won't make a difference. (If you want set design, do this separately.)

I agree....most of the storyboard software I've seen would take a long time to learn and then be time-consuming to work with! I've just been handsketching
rough storyboards in collaboration with others involved on a project...seems to work fine.

I bought frame forge 3d and it has helped a lot actually. Not perfect, but a great way to see the entire scene, see what individual shots would look like, and connect all the cameras. Really not very hard to learn at all and once you set up a scene, you're pretty much done. No need to draw anything over again.
After watching the 'Hollywood Camera Work' dvds on blocking, I've bought into their idea that storyboards are more useful for outsiders to see the totality of what you're planning. But for the director and crew, they need to see how dolly tracks connect, how actor blocking interacts with and affects camera placement, etc. This really helps to see the scene in its totality rather than segmented and isolated shot. Think about it, when you're planning a shot list, do you go by a strick story board picture by picture, or do you think, "Camera A follws Actor A across the room to a desk and we keep Camera A rolling b/c later in the scene ..."
The Hollywood dvd people have a free blocking template for Illustrator on their site which gives you a good overhead view of a scene and helps with a lot of this stuff. The nice thing about frame forge is you have this overhead view AND the point of view of each camera available simultaneously.
Neither the Hollywood dvds nor the Frameforge software is cheap (~$400 and $280 respectively) but I think they're invaluble. Then again, what the hell do I know.

I like FrameForge because you can move your cameras around in 3D space and actually "see" different angles. It's great to play with in terms of generating ideas as much as show ing them.

"...when you're planning a shot list, do you go by a strict story board picture by picture...?"

Good story boards aren't just picture by picture, they also indicate camera movement.

The only thing that would sell me on storyboard software would be if it could animate (with tweening to create intermediate frames), in order to see also timing. This can be done with certain 3D software, but now you're talking about a LOT more training.

It is not important to have pretty storyboards, they are just notation for how to shoot.

During shooting you will see that some things should be done differently, but at least you have a solid starting point.

There is one good use for pretty storyboards: getting financing.
It does make the script come alive...

I used FrameForge 3D to storyboard a DV feature. In the first year of release the developer often updated the software for free, often with new features. You can specify camera angles and get realistic angles on characters. I also printed out several shots as jpeg files and my art director used them as a guide to set construction.

I'm about to do that myself to help with the art department stuff. As for 3D animation, I'm going to experiment with placing the jpegs from Frameforge on a time line in Vegas and using it to zoom in etc. Will also add things to simulate the desired lighting and add music and dialog. It won't be as pretty as hand drawn story boards, but will get the idea across much better. Also, I'll be able to tweak it at any time and not have to get the artist over to do it.
I'm telling ya'll this software is helpful. The only bummer is that it may put some people out of their jobs, and that does suck.

Thank you amd yes I believe we all can get spread too thin. I find myself wearing so many hats because I have such little faith in others. This is a problem with me for my entire life, while am exploring other attitudes, and inside believe that for now I must go it alone.
Thank you very much,
Marty

Yes I found a very simple layout tool. It takes 20 minutes to learn, and has an online tutorial, it's free for now, very very easy but a good layout tool.
I found it at: http://www.atomiclearning.com/storyboardpro
It one limitation is you must use the audio keyframe for music clips, as it comes with a really crummy lib of music.
I really like it but then again I am just using it as a rough out tool.
Best Wishes ,
Marty

"I'm telling ya'll this software is helpful. The only bummer is that it may put some people out of their jobs, and that does suck."

Why is that?

You mean like when the NLE was invented, the editors lost their jobs because the camera people could now edit the videos themselves? :O)

A new tool that artists can use doesn't preclude the need for somebody to do the work.

A software engineer with an IQ of 300 won't do as good a job with even the best software program as an artist can do with a pencil.

Creating nice shots is a purely creative process. It requires an eye for the visual, a feel for the story and experience enough to know how a scene is best illustrated. If you are shooting at a practical location, you'll have additional constraints. A storyboard pro is good at all these things, and his/her choice of a No. 2 1/2 pencil vs. Storyboard V2.5 makes no difference to the usefulness of his/her output.

I have also had the disease of trying to do everything myself, but finally started hiring pros to do scriptwriting and storyboarding. I found to my great surprise that I was very good at writing dialog, but experienced screenwriters were much better at creating the framework.

And storyboarding... It was such a relief to find that I could work superfast with a talented artist. We did roughs in no time, then he was off on his own and came back with stuff that blew me away.

With software, I found myself tinkering with all the possibilities of a scene, and bending every joint on the actors to make them look as good as possible. It just destroyed my creativity, and took too much time.

Of course a dedicated artist could do beautiful work with software, but the end result won't be any better, and it is possible that it would take much longer than if he or she used pencils and brushes.

Yes sir, I do understand the tinkering thing as I am in a wheelchair with very little mobility, I wake up in the middle of the night pondering the most infinite details imaginable.
My friend Randy Allred (Director of “Beat Angel”) is in Arizona tonight at the festival, so I am very apprehensive about the viewing of his film, it is quite wonderful but I want so much for he and his family. He worked on it for almost ten years before release, and I learned a little about details watching him work.
What I try to convey is lost sometimes with m lack of ability to speak clearly, it is so very frustrating!
Best Thoughts
Marty

ezway, thanks for the link. I'll have to check it out. Coursedesign, you've got a point about delegating responsibility. It's great whenever you can. But, when you're trying to setup a scene, plan blocking, camera movement, etc, I would think the DP and the Director are (hopefully at least) the most qualified. The nice thing about Frame forge is you can have a few people look on and get an overhead and point of view of the camera. Just did this with my DP and it was a great aid to us. Now getting someone to design the set ahead of time so all you have to do is show it to your DP, that would save some time. Then getting them to plug in the shots you want would save a little time as well. This is really fairly unskilled stuff. I will never be able to draw to save my life, but I can design a set with this software. I'm just saying it sucks that skilled artists might get replaced by people who can just plug in dimensions into a 3D program.
But you're right, changes like this are somewhat inevitable.

Yes, exactly, I will use a skilled artist later, but during the roughout I just want a simple tool to allow me to re-think the cam positions and such.

I believe I am in some ways using the software and the menu options contained therein to "supply" another way of looking at the scene.

Perhaps "supply" is not a good word?... if I see the shot as a establishment, and then look at a list from the dropdown menu of the other choices, it reveals anothers/other possibilities, of mechnical points of view.
Anyway I like to keep it simple for now.
Best Wishes,
Marty

"But, when you're trying to setup a scene, plan blocking, camera movement, etc, I would think the DP and the Director are (hopefully at least) the most qualified."

I read this sentence last night and wasn't sure I understood it correctly. Most people don't spend money on a DP until just before shooting time, but it is very helpful for developing storyboards. Storyboards should include camera movement, otherwise you're not getting the full benefit by far.

Storyboards are not for the screenwriter!

The scene setup, blocking, camera movement should generally FOLLOW the storyboards, otherwise they were of little help. Of course there can be changes on the set as things are seen not to work for a million reasons, but the storyboards should ideally be a complete film in the mind's eye. This means that the director should be intimately involved in the storyboarding process, because he is responsible for the feel of the film and if he can't relate to the storyboards, it's all wasted time.

Coursedesign, I think where we disagree is you say the the scene setup, blocking, etc should follow the storyboards. I think I'm more of a fan of examining a scene as a whole and then trying to decide how best to join the cameras and establish the blocking. From that design (overhead models, Frameforge-esque software, etc) you select what camera views you want to show what action and at what time and this becomes your storyboard. For me, even directions on storyboards like Katz illustrates in his books, is still too segmented and micro for me. Beginning more macro and going micro works better for me. Of course, we all like to think "Hey, it would be a really cool shot if we did this..." so there's always some micro coming in and you get a nice mix to incorporate together.
Right now I'm working on creating a storyboard in Vegas from the still shots I took from Frameforge. From this, I'm better able to see what camera I want to show and when. Basically, it will serve to show the totality of the work. That might help with lighting and set design to get a feel from what I'm going for, but my DP will be more concerned about where to move the camera and when. Also, when I'm finished it will give me a big step up in editing. That's what I use a laid out storyboard for.
It's entirely possible that I'm not explaning this as well as I could. There's a whole chapter in the Hollywood Camera Work dvd on "Why Storyboards don't work" that gets into a lot of this. Really wish they had that clip online, but they don't for some reason. They have some other good ones, but this chapter.
Anyway, this could just be a matter of different strokes for different folks. If what you're doing works for you then there's no reason to change it. But, if you ever do come across the Hollywood DVDs, check them out for a bit. You might find it a different way of looking at things and beneficial to visualization in some way. I've never seen your work, so I don't want it to seem like I'm saying you have no vision. I'm just saying keep an open mind, you might like it.

"I think I'm more of a fan of examining a scene as a whole and then trying to decide how best to join the cameras and establish the blocking. From that design (overhead models, Frameforge-esque software, etc) you select what camera views you want to show what action and at what time and this becomes your storyboard."

I don't disagree with that at all. It's just that I do that part in my head, and then create the storyboards. It's what works for me. On location, I get diagrams with all key distances and planned camera movements marked in pencil, before creating the storyboards.

I bought the Hollywood Camera Work videos when they were released and found them to be outstanding. What a labor of love!

I was thinking that if Mark used Adobe Illustrator to do storyboards, of course he didn't like them. Anything that is timeconsuming gets in the way of the creative process, at least for me.

It is true that some of the world's best filmmakers don't use any storyboards at all. They just start each day with a general idea of what they want to shoot, and then play around with everything until something clicks. An expensive way to work, but it really works for them.

Personally I did not expect to get as much out of storyboarding as I did. The only reason it suddenly clicked for me was that I got lucky: I found a very good artist who had a great eye for both composition and camera movement. I just felt right at home.

I'll scan some of my storyboards and post here when I get back to the office, perhaps that can better show why I like working with them.

Yeah, I'm really pulling for those people who made the Hollywood dvds. Small company that I hope has enough resources to get the word out. If you don't know any better, it's hard to justify spending the $400+ on them, but I agree. They are outstanding. Hope they come out with more stuff soon.
I'd love to take a look at your storyboards if possible. Could you post a note here if and when you get them online?

StoryBoarding Really helps me out.. Middle of the Shoot.. Setting up. Grip.. Actors asking questions.. Setting Mics/Recorders/Headphones/Boom poles up.. Giving Directions.. Taking Light Readings..Public watching.... Making sure the Camera settings are right ..Checking costumes..Finding lost stuff...MORE unexpected !

Last thing I need is trying to work out the best angles.. grip placement ..Actor Positions then not having enough time to be sure? ect..Nightmare :(

I Try to Memorise the Storyboard... It still takes all my Powers of Concentration But I now have a Blue print and Know Roughly what I'M doing ...

I Visualise how the sequence will go THEN Draw (Badly) using arrows and written directions underneath.. I Memorise this the same way I remember lines..

If that's the way you do storyboards then I think you'd like the Hollywood dvd free template for Illustrator. That's basically what it does but it's able to show you all the moves (camera and talent) in one overhead. Also, it standizes the notations so you'll know what you meant 6 months later if you ever go back to an old storyboard. Check it out on their site.

>>>>I think you'd like the Hollywood dvd free template for Illustrator.<<<<

Where would I get the free Template from?

Thanks !

M2929

Coursedesign great thoughts certainly yet another way to view my project, and that's what I need. I have very limited use of my body, so I sometimes look for hours at the simple storyboard and play the backgroung music to try and understand what I must communicate.
Talent comes in with one,two or three readings, our projects have been analyized until we understand every nuance of every field, frame and shadow.
Thank you for the insight,
Marty