I spent over 3 hours at ABC Ultimo on the weekend looking around. They're looking pretty tapeless to me. Hm, saw two HDCAM SR decks not doing much work.....


Bob.

I use both tapeless and HDV.

One thing to consider when people say the cost of tape is cheaper is that it is also requires more time, especially capturing. And if you need to preview a shot to see if you got it right, also takes more time. And if you did preview, you'd better be careful not to record over what you just did. Then there are timecode breaks and dropped frames.

Also, someone said its always much easier to find professional tape decks, but, for me anyways, that is not the case. Any computer these days can access flash drives, whether directly through a reader or via USB. You'd have to go to a post house to find professional tape drives, and whatever computers they use would also handle tapeless.

Sure tapeless needs backup, but I find backup much easier and less time consuming than capturing. When my Sony A1 finally dies (some unfortunate salt water damage-but a year and a half later the thing is still recording perfectly!!), we are going all tapeless.

kairosmatt

Not all SD or SDHC cards work with the EX1 as per the discussions on DVinfo. In fact some on that forum have done extensive testing for months as to which adapters and cards will work without error to replace the overpriced Sony SxS cards. There was only one Express Card Adapter that worked reliably - the Kensington K33407 which is now discontinued. The only substitute that seems reliable is distributed by a DVinfo forum member who lives in Australia. His thread and purchase information is on that site. So with the hundreds of Express Card adapters there are available today - Most of them don't work.

Then there are the very few SD cards that work in either the Kensington adapters (if you are lucky enough to have bought them when they were available) or the card sold by the Australian Dvinfo forum member internationally. There are only Three SDHC cards that work reliably in both of those adapters. One is the Sandisk Ultra II 15MBps (Class 4) SDHC card. The second is the Sandisk Extreme III 30MBps (Class 6) SDHC card. The third is the Transcend 16 GB SDHC Class 6 Flash Memory Card TS16GSDHC6 which is the cheapest. So with the hundreds of SD cards available - Most of them don't work in what is now only one single Express Card adapter available worldwide that works and that you have to order from Australia.

Either way, with currently only one adapter available that works consistently that has to be mail ordered from Australia and only three SDHC cards that work reliably there is a long way to go for this trend.

John

Bob:

It seems like a lot of the people who agrue for tape just haven't used solid state. I totally agree tape is dead. It seems ridiculous after using solid state to capture a tape.

I don't agree that optical media is good storage. A pressed disc probably lasts an extremely long time. My burned DL discs from a few years ago, that are reularly used (like a training DVD), are starting to fail. SL discs are still okay. It's starting to worry me, and to be nice Im going to provide replacements.

Also, the new SDXC cards should be out soon. They start at 64GB/100MBS and ramp up from there. That should put downward pricing pressures on SDHC and smaller cards like 16GB. This will really put pressure on tape and optical media in the future, especially when they get up to the 2TB future size for SDXC.

Jeff

Jabloom said "Basically, any electronics equipment with moving parts for storage, is being phased out"

Which of course is a shame for those who'd be better off with tape.

We bought a new HDX900 to take down to equatorial islands for a month, mainly because the workflow and security of tapes was preferred to trying to dump solid state cards to disk throughout the day for a month straight. But this stuff gets refined over time. Maybe there's a good portable, battery powered and automated way to dump cards in the field, and then do unattended backups at camp later on?

Granted, solid state or direct to disk is a great way to go in a well supported environment where ingest time is money, and in most cases this is where you'd find yourself. In our case it was production time that was costly and using up a human resource to dump cards, do backups, haul computers, batteries, keep everything charged... not appealing.

Rob Mack

Ahh. "affordable". There's the rub. A good RAID 5 array could get you plenty of throughput but it probably won't be a NAS and it won't be affordable. The thing is that people looking at NAS arrays aren't really looking for tons of throughput.

We're running on Rorke Galaxy sumptin-or-others over fiber. There's definitely a RAID5 component to the setup and there's definitely enough thoughput for DVCProHD. Definitely not affordable though if you're looking at it on a personal finance scale.

Urgh. First of all I guess we're talking consumer practices vs professional practices. I've never seen tapes in the washer or all over the house after one of our shoots. Considering that once they're recorded they're now worth a few thousand dollars each, we take good care of the media.

In terms of media costs, maybe a way to look at it is in terms of what can be tolerated. People still shoot in 35mm film and the cost of that is very high. Higher than SxS cards when you consider that the cards are reusable. This is a pretty extreme and unfair comparison but the point is that you do what's required.

Rob Mack

You're comparing DPs shooting solid state vs what old farts want delivered to them. Different people in the chain have different needs and I think the old farts are looking at long term storage as well as interoperability.

Solid state is still in it's infancy and there's lots of infrastructure to be built yet. In the professional realm I think this'll get nailed down over the next decade. For prosumers, I don't think people are too picky.

Yep. I didn't say that I liked the trend, though. Tapes & optical disks provide some level of comfort that you will always be able to retrieve archived material.

I was going to replace my main editing machine to a Core i7, but the prices have been dropping so much (The PC that I was going to assemble from NewEgg components has dropped $1,500 in less than a month!), that I've held off. And I've also been watching the SSD prices and they are starting to decline too. If this trend keeps up, the transition to solid state stuff will accelerate. But there is some good news for those of us who like "legacy" storage devices. I just picked up a Western Digital 1TB drive for $100+, as others have done here recently.

The old farts (in post), and this includes producers, that see it in operation are sold on it.

Long-term storage is not an issue.

In a couple of weeks if the project gets the green light I'll be with a crew using the Phantom 10. Choices for offloading are HDCAM or download via laptop. Guess which choice we're taking at both the DoPs and my advice. One reason for that choice is HDCAM is lower quality.


Probably worth pointing out that Sony now make tapeless 'VCRs' for the old farts. We have a XDCAM EX30 which is quite cheap and records / plays out via HD SDI to SxS cards. The el cheapo SDHC cards and adaptors also work in this unit.

Bob.

Is there a solid state "VCR" for the FX1?

"Is there a solid state "VCR" for the FX1? "

Yes. Sony make a unit that records to CF cards that'll work with it.
If you don't mind using a spinning disk there's also the somewhat overpriced and absurdly fiddly to use HVR-DR60 HD recorder.

Bob.

Finally, what I was looking for in this conversation. Those of us that have tape acquisition cams (like the FX1) and don't want to have to buy a new camera. How do we go about going tapeless. What is the name of the Sony unit you are talking about and strteet cost?

Yeah, I know about the HD recorder and it costs over $1,000, if memory serves. Absurdly overpriced hardly seems adequate to describe that pricing.

But, as Terry is asking, I am interested in a simple solid state device. Seems like all it would take would be a Firewire card reader, with a minimum of extra logic.

This is the device which you seek...

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-HVRMRC1K/

Or here is a link to a Sony PDF that compares the HVR-MRC1K memory card recorder to the HVR-DR60 hard drive unit:

http://ws.sel.sony.com/PIPWebServices/RetrievePublicAsset/StepID/SEL-asset-150186/original/HVR-DR60_HVR-MRC1K_Brochure_Final08.pdf

Rob Mack- I'll admit, you make a good point and I certainly wouldn't argue with you. I'm a self admitted bottom dwelling noob in here and in the videography world. Right now my home IS my office. I've only been doing this for 5 months as a hobby turned side job that will hopefully turn full time some day. I love it.

So I respect what a lot of you guys say that do this for a profession. I'm a sponge right now soaking up all the info and knowledge that I can. The more I hear about some of the benefits of tape, the more open I am to using it. I don't really like the thought of tape ingestion or having to be patient to sift through footage that I just recorded to see if I got something correctly. With solid state I can go right to it and I can start editing almost immediately.

Two of the prosumer cams I'm looking at are HDV though. I also worry about the longevity of the recording units themselves. How many hours can be put through an HDV cam before it needs some sort of regular maintenance for mechanical operations? I check Zoompoint on Ebay all the time for very nice used gear, and most of the time they show hours of operation etc. What's a good low hour limit for buying used HDV gear?

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Modern video uses a type of tape that is uber smooth. Head wear is no longer an issue. The bearings will wear out before the heads, heck the camera will be obsolete before the heads wear out. Simply putting the camera to your ear will give you an indication of the state of the bearings. Also zoom in and out, the motors that drive the zoom can get noisy.

In general there aren't too many real bargains in the 2nd hand market. New prices come down over time, there are better bargains to be had in "new old stock" from reputable dealers in my opinion unless you really know what you're buying into with stuff on eBay. I've many times seen cameras sell 2nd hand on eBay for around current new prices, if you know how to drive a bargain.

Look around and see if you can still find the Sony HC7 in stock and try to drive a hard bargain on one. Around a year ago we picked up a HC5 for half the price of the HC7 and in the current economic climate everyone wants to move old stock.

Bob.

The HC1 (that one!) still fetches $500 on ebay regularly. And the Sony A1, well over $1000-usually much closer to $2000.

@Bob and kairosmatt- If I go the HDV route (still don't know if I'm sold on it) it will be straight to $3,000-ish prosumer territory.

I'm currently using a Caon HF10 (with various accessories) and just purchased a Letus 35mini/support rod system. Using Canon FD lenses. While the images are great coming out of the HF10, I've seen better out of the HV30. I also know better can be had from a larger 3 sensored camera, and if I detached the Letus, I still want a great imager. The battle in my mind over solid state vs. HDV are these:

HDV: Canon XHA1s or Sony FX1000
Solid State: JVC GY-HM100 (Quicktime/ISO Mpeg2 Long GOP) or Panasonic AG-HMC150 (AVCHD)

All four are killer cams.

There isn't too much info on the JVC yet, but it is quicktime native, so might not be a good choice for Vegas use.

You might also want to look Canon's new HF-S10, has many upgrades from the HF10 you already have, though it hasn't been released yet.

kairosmatt

@kariosmatt- Yeah, I know about the QT files...but it also has the ISO Base Files too for all NLE's. Besides, (and I hope I don't get kicked out of here, haha) but I don't know if I will always be on PC/Sony anyway. Photographer I work for uses mac for everything so I may be going that route. It makes the JVC is a good contender. I just hope it performs.

Trust me, the HF-S10 is really catching my eye. The larger sensor, gain control, and peaking alone are worth it. Especially with my Letus system. I just don't know if AVCHD is where I want to stay right now. I've already produced a 16min. wedding video with avchd, hdv, bullet, HUGE jpegs, and music. So I CAN do it, but its slow. Right now, I (with my own eyes) think that the HV30 produces a MUCH better overall picture and color reproduction than HF10/11 currently does.