Taping a school play - need some tips.

MrSpeed wrote on 12/6/2004, 6:07 AM
Hello,
I realize this is a little off topic but I am filming a school play with a two camera setup.
The close up camera will be a consumer level Canon.

The primary camera will be in the back and I am borrowing a VX1000. This camera does not have an AE mode for spotlight.

Does anybody have tips for the VX1000 ? Should I just leave ot in auto ? Should I zoom in on face to set the exposure manually ? I want to avoid washing out the faces during the performance. Also any tips on settting the white balance ? Should I just leave it in the tungsten setting ?

Oh and one more thing. In regards to the sound the show is being professionall done by a real sound person. For one show I previously did with this person I got the sound straight out of the board. However the overall result was that we were missing a lot of the crowd reaction and I had to add some reverb in the post production to make it sound a little more natural. Also for the choir numbers the sound was dominated by those that had mics.

I like the simplicity of using the onboard microphone but I also have a wireless. Should I just use the onboard or place the wireless near the front of the so it picks up a what the audience is hearing ? You know a little of the sound guys mix through the PA plus the natural reverb of the room and the choir ?

Thanks,
Rich

Comments

GaryKleiner wrote on 12/6/2004, 8:13 AM
For theatrical productions, you must set the exposure manually. USE AN EXTERNAL MONITOR for both cameras, so you can see what you are shooting.

As you discovered, one audio source (the board) is not a good approach. You need mics whereever there is sound, so create a mix of theatre ambience, orchestra, sound board, etc.

Of course, if your not getting paid much, shoot it with only an on-camera mic and a single-chip hi-8 :-)

Gary
rextilleon wrote on 12/6/2004, 10:00 AM
Expose for the flesh tones--dont try to get everything because theatrical lighting often falls out of allowable latitude for video. On an inexpensive shoot, you can patch into the sound board, and then as Gary said, use the second camera's onboard mic to pick up ambient sound and for purposes of synching.
Maestro wrote on 12/6/2004, 10:18 AM
For audio, be prepared for some work in post production. Because the sound engineer is usually mixing for the house, your feed isn't going to sound good for the video without some work. As stated before, the more separate tracks you can record the better. One channel could be the sound feed, the other your ambient mic. The optimal way to record sound at a live event like this is to either have a mixer dedicated to the video sound (not house sound), or to take all the channels into a multitrack recorder and mix it all in Vegas in post. That, obviously, is a LOT of work.

If you use the onboard microphone and you're near the audience, you're going to capture every sneeze, cough, and little kid screaming/crying between you and the stage. That's why I usually only use that microphone for applause. Adding reverb to the feed sound is a great idea--one I do myself on nearly every shoot. Put your wireless at the front of the stage apron and record that into a channel separate from the feed if possible--allows for more control in post production. In most of the productions I shoot I spend far more time on the audio than the video.

I second the thought on exposing for skin tones (faces mostly). Nothing is worse than "lightbulbs" for heads because of overexposure. For close shots, auto exposure on a spotlight setting *might* work, but will fail miserably for wide shots. For best results and to prevent annoying "hunting" (and since the camera doesn't have a spotlight mode anyway), shoot on manual.

-Brent
MrSpeed wrote on 12/6/2004, 12:06 PM
I'm curious about using multiple mics. Don't you run into phase problems ?
I have some experience in recording music. It was common when using multiple mics to record guitar that you could use phase cancellation to your advantage if done properly.

Is there so much dispersion in a large hall that you don't encounter phase cancellation problems ?

I might use the two cameras for the room sound and record the board seperate. This way I can tweak in post if needed.

I personally like the soundboard sound and adding my own EQ and reverb. The director likes the sound from the camera better. She feels it's a more accurate representation of what the audience hears. And as was mentioned above the audio guy is mixing for the room.

I really appreciate all the suggestions.
I'm actually more concerned about the video. Is it difficult to "ride the slider" for exposure ? The camera has zebra stripes to help out in manual.

JackW wrote on 12/6/2004, 2:16 PM
Go to a dress rehearsal. Record parts of the production at various aperture settings, keeping a record of the settings for each shot. I usually do this by speaking into the camera mic. When you find a setting that seems to work, bracket it by one f-stop on each side and shoot some of this. Do this for the brightest and darkest scenes, especially scenes where follow spots are used. You'll find, when you get back to your studio monitors you can find one setting that works for the entire show.

Keep in mind that the lighting designer has provided a variety of "looks," from very bright to quite dark. If you ride the iris you can easily negate the work of the lighting designer, coming up with a tape in which any scene looks pretty much like all the others. This may provide "good" video, but it does a disservice to the theatrical production you're recording.

We often work with a designer who uses lots of very intense colors and a great deal of moody lighting. Our goal is to produce a tape that looks very much like her work. We're very careful not to have blown out scenes, but tolerate a little under exposure as a necessity to do justice to the stage lighting.

As for the audio, you can't always get it but quite a few houses we shoot in have auditorium mics, or the board op is willing to put in a house mic for us. We negotiate this at the dress rehearsal. If this is possible, the board op can mix this into the feed to your camera or disc recorder, or feed it to your mixer so you can balance it as you see fit. Absent this, using audio from one of the camera mics in the mix works reasonably well, although it's apt to have a great deal of reverb in it.

Jack
Maestro wrote on 12/6/2004, 5:34 PM
I've never had problems with phasing and I've shot a lot of productions. I think it's the least of your audio worries. By all means, keep the signals as separated as possible. Once it's mixed, your options are very limited. You have far more options with separate recordings. But that of course is more work and requires more recording devices.

Riding the iris does indeed take some practice, but once you have it it's really second nature. With my GY-DV5000, stage productions typically fall around F2.8 to F8, with the gain set at -3. The good news is that with an aperature like that, you rarely have to worry about focus unless you're doing extreme close-ups. I typically set my focus to slightly downstage of center, and forget about it for the whole show. So all your fingers need to worry about is the exposure. Zebra stripes are a definite help. And practice, practice, practice...

-Brent
rs170a wrote on 12/6/2004, 6:03 PM
Mr Speed;
You're not telling us anything about either the size of the auditorium, the lighting equipment, the P.A. system, skill level of operators or what kind of school it is.
WIth that in mind, I can only relate my experiences about videotaping a number of plays at my kid's grade school.
Student population is only 300 with a gym/auditorium that would be hard pressed to hold all the kids at once.
The play is lit using a single spot light from the back of the gym (roughly 75 ft.). I position myself right next to the spot operator and shoot from there. I'm fortunate to have a JVC-550U (2/3" 3-chip camcorder) for the taping. I always shoot on manual and ride the iris as required. Generally though, I get there ahead of time, have the spot light shine onto a 4 ft. x 4 ft. piece of foamcore oat centre stage and set my exposure to that. Because it's only a single spot, I know that's my maximum exposure.
As far as audio goes, I tap into the house P.A. It's an older Peavy board with a main out and a monitor out. The teacher/board operator never uses the monitor outs so I use that line to feed my camera. The biggest advantage to doing this is that I essentially create my own submix and don't have to worry about feedback, an on-going concern for the teacher.
They've always been very happy with the results :-)

Mike
MrSpeed wrote on 12/7/2004, 6:08 AM
I like JackW suggestions.

The room seats 800, has two spots, about 8 cove lights and the usual assortment of stage lights. The lighting/sound guy is a pro and it would be nice to keep as much of his lighting design close to it's original design....within reason.

I have two dress rehersals to experiment and do tests. I was playing a lot with the camera last night and it's not too difficult to be in manual for the aperature. I was using zebra stripes to help out a little.

The main thing I'm trying to avoid is having the actors faces over exposed . I like rs170a's idea of using foamcore to get a maximum exposure.
craftech wrote on 12/7/2004, 7:19 AM
I shoot theatrical productions almost exclusively. Considering your equipment the best bet would be for you to use or rent a stereo mike such as the AT822 which comes with the proper adapter and add an xlr extension to mount the mike high up aimed at the stage. The XLR to 1/8" mini adapter will plug right into that camera. I would avoid that soundboard because you may end up with something unusable depending upon where you are hooked in.
Your wireless mike is probably directional so it won;t do you much good. If you have a recorder such as a minidisc you can hook that up to the soundboard as a backup or to emphasize a vocal by mixing in post.
However, if the sound person is truly a professional the room should have balanced clear sound so the AT822 or equivalent stereo mike would be the best bet.
I would leave in the camera WB setting on the tungsten (indoor) setting. Manual WB would be a waste of time given the lighting changes. Use the Zebra settings, but be careful. Use the 70 IRE setting for the Zebra. Manual exposure is the way to go and when you go to the rehearsals get a ballpark idea of the settings then just roll the wheel up or down as the lighting changes. You will need a small TV or monitor to watch as you do it.
The other issue is manual focus. Autofocus will blur too much as the lightis go on and off or as you pan the camera. Zoom in to the center of the stage (front to back)and manually focus. I would leave it there on the Sony and use the Canon for extreme closeups. The Canon footage will look different anyway. It's white balance is different among other things so if the Canon shots are only for the closeups it won't be as noticeable and post will be easier.
Now, let me prioritize. I haven't mentioned it, but if you are only going to two rehearsals your main priority is to know the script at least fairly well. You need to know when the actors are entering stage left or stage right or both so you can minimize the kind or mistakes that are REALLY noticeable such as the camera is in the wrong place then all of a sudden finds the actor or hunts for him or her. That's first. Don't follow the actor on stage from the curtains, let them walk into the scene even if all your hear is their voice for a few seconds and the camera is on another actor engaged in the dialogue with the actor entering. Too much camera motion looks bad.
You won't have to deal with the audio or the sneezes or babies crying or the audience talking if you mount the mike high up and feed it into the VX1000.
Using manual exposure, you will have noticeable changes from light to dark and back as you roll the exposure wheel. Sometimes it looks objectionable and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I fix it in post and sometimes I leave it. Memorizing the lighting sequence would require a disproportionate amount of time and they may change it on you and not tell you about it. The problem is greatest if the lighting sequence is NOT computerized especially if kids are running the lights. Bear in mind also that directors of stage productions often have little concept of video. Most of them like darkness or blackness. Many of them like colors that are hell for video. Many of them like glowing heads under spotlights that can turn into incandescent blobs of light. Spotlight settings are virtually useless. You must manually expose. The surrounding area may have to be left pitch black in order to keep the face of a performer with an intense spot on them exposed properly. You can try hooking a video tape recorder up to the camera during the rehearsal and then show the results of any really bad stuff to the director , but be careful. Many directors don't want to hear it. I would approach it as a "clarification". "Please check this scene and let me know if this is what you want it to look like". Sometimes they look at it and change the color of the filter, add more light to the scene, or tell you to do your job and leave them alone. Depends on the director.

John
MrSpeed wrote on 12/9/2004, 8:10 PM
I shot the first show today. The sound guy could not give me a feed. He only had xlr out and there was no way to get the xlr/phone jack adapter.

I also know firm past experience with this sound guy that he mixes for the room and the sound coming off the board is not a good representation of what the audience hears. For example the drums and bass are very low in the mix because they are pretty loud all by themselves in the room.

So what I did is place a directional mic in front of the audience to pick up the PA speakers, the band and chorus to hopefully get a balanced sound mix and minimize audience chatter. I went to my laptop's hard drive with this recording. On the two cameras I used the onboard mic's. I just watched some footage from the vx1000 and the sound was not too shabby. I will have to process it with some compression during production and if I need it I have the recording from my laptop. I have yet to listen to the laptops recording.

Video wise we went with manual focus and exposure. We had a small monitor near to camera as well. There were some "moody scenes" where we could have opened up the aperture more for better video but we tried to balance good video with the integrity of the lighting designers work as much as possible. We also made every attempt to stay below 9db. I would almost rather be underexposed than have the video grainy. Some of the costumse were a nightmare from the exposure standpoint. Actors in white dresses next to dark dresses. It was a tough balancing act.

I still have another show to shoot and then I'll have 12 tapes to go through to come up with a final product. I wish people realized how tedious the post production work is !

That is some great advice craftech regarding camera location and not following the actors and camera motion. I'll try to do more of that advice on the second show.