I don't consider myself a "pro" on this board, but am happy to report that V7 works beautifully with HDV. Yes, I can very occasionally get a black-frame issue, but it's rare and fixable. I can't speak to V8 but frankly have seen no need to move to that version. From what I read here, there are a few issues with V8, but no showstoppers.

As for HDV, it's a whole different world from SD. I happen to just love the aspect ratio and greatly-increased resolution, but I guess for many it's an unnecessary complication. And it's true, the m2t format is more tender than DV, so any dropout is a major event. But for the kind of shooting I do, it is wonderful.

I'm also sticking with SD for the time being, but V8 has a lot of goodies that serve me well, even in SD. A really good multicam editing facility. The snapping function in the timeline. The Pro Titler, among others.

Until then I'm quite happy sticking to well tested stuff.

The problem is that SD looks like crap. Shooting SD is like recording audio on cassette tape. The quality is just horrible compared to what you get with even a consumer grade AVCHD camcorder.

It's not that I want to blaze trails. I just want the stuff I'm working on now to be viewable without apologies in a couple of years.

Yeah I've gone through a lot of headaches, but it has been worth it, and currently my workflow is as smooth as it ever was working with SD.

I am currently working on a triathlon even that was shot in HDV at 30p.

I am making extensive use of the Mercalli motion stabilizing plugin since carrying a tripod around trying to catch a race was totally impractical.

The end result that the client will get will be an SD DVD that is absolutely orders of magnitude better than if it was shot in SD. Why you might ask?

Because the extra resolution let me deshake the footage and still get the maximum SD resolution. If I'd shot in SD, I would have to make the choice of either leaving in the shake or losing significant resolution. The result is absolutely solid full resolution footage that looks just stunning, even though it was all shot within the space of two hours.

Another huge difference in the final SD DVD is the color. The color absolutely pops due to being able to take advantage of the full SD DVD mpeg2 color space. This wouldn't be a big deal with a PAL SD camera, but for an NTSC project it absolutely has better color than it would otherwise.

The client will have an SD DVD that looks tons better than it would have shot in SD, and I will have a Blu-ray (or at least an AVCHD disc) version that will be just stunning to show off to my friends and future clients.

You may not think shooting HD has much advantage since most people are still taking the final project in SD DVD, but you would be wrong. HD footage looks tons better, especially if you take advantage of the extra resolution for stabilizing.

The problem is that SD looks like crap.

That's your opinion, and that's okay, too.

Well, Laurence has special needs that are met by HD. Good for him that he has the option. SD meets my needs perfectly well at the present, good for me. When I think back to the tools that were available to me 20 years ago, I give a prayer of thanks for today's tools every night before I retire.

Hey Laurence, does that Mercalli plugin work straight off as a plugin in Vegas 8? I spent a couple of months exporting clips to VirtualDub and it's Deshaker plugin to get around Vegas's supposed frameserving limitations. I spent months looking for a direct plugin!

People on this forum range from enthusiast (that's me) to seasoned pro's.
What about the giants? If the major film production companies (MGM, UA, Sony) and the like have problems (I'm sure they must) do we hear about them? Editing s/w etc for them - must have their own bugs. How do they get support? I bet that a software engineer is round there straight away - it's "clout" isn't it. Bit like if our phone line goes down - we wait if we are "joe public", but an on call doctor has his phone line fixed before it goes wrong !

Are we pro's or are we that bit in the middle that don't spend millions on our systems?

Mel.

Mel,
I think it's fine to stick with SD and V7 if that works for you. If you don't need HD yet, that's fine. But here's the difference in flow when I went to HD about a year ago:

- Tape in SD (with Sony 2100's), capture (via Vegas), edit.
- Tape in HD (with Sony V1u and Canon HV20), capture (via Cineform), edit.

The only difference is that I sometimes have to change the preview settings, and lately I've been adding steps in ADDITION to the normal editing (Mercalli, using additional plugins, etc.), but that's only because HD can create such amazing footage that I do more things with it. And my render options have greatly increased, but I view that more as an asset rather than a drawback. But otherwise, I don't find the flow that much different.

I've done the same project for a company -- once taped in SD and then last summer in HDV -- and they were blown away by the HD footage and commented that they didn't know their location was ever that beautiful.

While I'm still delivering in SD and have had no request for HD, I will certainly buy no more SD cameras.

At the end of 2006, I bought a Sony A1U. I was not impressed. I liked the features of my VX2000's much better.

In February I was asked to do a video of a church play - a musical with 10 to 15 actors on stage simultaneously. The lighting was strong. After the dress rehearsal, I reviewed the footage from the VX2000's and the A1U.

I'm now very impressed with the HDV format. The color comparison between the VXs and the A1 leaves no doubt which is superior.

Now all I've gotta do is figure out how to justify the outlay for an HDV camcorder a little closer in features to the VX's......

I just bought an SD11 (bundle deal via b&h, though you have to call since it says out of stock, they'll still ship all but the hdmi cable), since AVCHD HDV is likely to give me better color saturation, cleaner for greenscreen shoots/keying, and more of a footprint to use for pans/zooms without losing resolution.

Plus the idea of using 8gb/16gb memory sticks for footage capture is appealing, so I can drag and drop vs using the slow vidcap.exe process.

-k

Vegas's problems are the last reason to avoid HD. Not like there's not other NLEs out there and of all the costs associated with this business NLE software is one of the smallest.

Bob.

While I won't pretend that I haven't had my fair share of hiccups since gravitating to HD, I can honestly say that I have no regrets. Not exaggerating but editing SD stuff now hurts my eyes, it just looks like crap, blurry and pixelated. The difference is nothing less than profound. The only thing I hate about having made the switch is that I only wish I could go back in time and reshoot everything I did previous.

- Ray
Some of my stuff on Vimeo
www.undergroundplanet.com

I never like to disillusion people who are happy with their current beliefs and there are good reasons (cost, for one thing) for people to stick with equipment that suits them and meets their expectations. I'll just mention a recent job doing post on a wedding video shot in SD on a 3 x CCD camera, which the client gave me on a data DVD. I told him there was obviously something wrong and to check his capture process (use a different codec) because it was all hopelessly soft. He couldn't see what I was talking about.
Much depends on the size of the viewing screen. Laurence made powerful points in his post.

The render part of the workflow is definitely slower, but everything else is at least equal and, as has been pointed out, whether your final delivery is HD (which very few people are actually doing) or SD DVD, the results are spectacularly better when you shoot HD, whether HDV, AVCHD, or something more exotic.

Mercalli works as a plugin in Vegas 8 just beautifully. I also worked with the JM Deshaker script and Virtualdub, but Mercalli is much better.

I really appreciate this thread, as I'm in the same boat, deciding between an SD camera (probably the Panasonic GS320) and HD (either HDV or AVCHD). I can see that the HD cameras have these advantages:
(1) long term - both by having today's HD footage available if and when I go BluRay, and by already having an HD camcorder when I decide to make HD dvds my priority
(2) short term - better color range and probably some options (although I don't know whether I'd use 24p, 30p, etc)

Unlike many here, I don't create movies for anyone but myself and my family. My son does like to be creative and post youtube videos. Still, though, I can see going HD, but my concerns mainly involve the workflow, and how to get HD movies back for viewing if I choose.

(1) the capture. CClub mentioned capturing via Cineform. Frankly, given our needs, I can't really justify purchasing Cineform just for capturing. Today, I use WinDV for capturing my SD footage (it's free, works great as far as I can tell). What are my options for capturing? I know I can capture in Vegas (I never have), but are there other free options? Again, I don't mind paying for things, but I also don't want to buy anything unnecessarily.

(2) editing. From what I've read, DV is easy to edit, HDV a little harder, and AVCHD much more difficult.

(3) rendering. Again, just how different are DV, HDV, and AVCHD for rendering, even if rendering to NTSC DVD?

(4) finally, HD end products. Almost all my results will be either youtube (ha) or SD DVDs. However, I can see where it would be nice to perhaps render an HD version and put it back on the camera (or SD card or tape, etc) and connect to my 55" Mitsubishi for viewing in HD. Am I limited to HDV in that case?

I can't understand what the problems are.May be I'm very lucky but I've been shooting HDV for more than two years and I think everything is pretty easy and normal.I now run a cheap quadcore
(an AMD phenom wich is not the fastest), and everything runs smooth. And Vegas 8 even smartrender HDV.

Even if you shoot SD, HD can be your friend. I've just got the green light on a project that was shot in SD. The original was edited and composited in SD and delivered to the client as such and deemed 'unfit for purpose'. My feeble efforts with Vegas got me the job.

My trick was simple, video upscaled to 720p, graphics done in 720p.
I chose 720p to match the video res to the screen res avoiding any scaling in the display. If they finally select 1080 panels, that's what I'll deliver.

Bob.

I've read many of the issues on this board as well, but I have to report that I have a pretty solid experience editing HD in Vegas. It seems the are more posts about problems then smooth experiences (as it should be really-this is where you come when you need help) but I'll just add a few positive words:

I edit HDV, Cineform AVIs, Raylight AVIs, and P2 MXF (using Raylight plugin) and DV. Sometimes with different resolutions, framerates and pulldowns all on the same timeline (if it can't be avoided). I have very little problems.

Yes, Vegas does crash, but only occasionally for me. All versions of 7 crashed about the same amount for me, but they all are solid enough for me not to complain or pull out my hair. My CPU is Intel duel-core, not state of the art but plenty speedy to keep up.

And the results are fantastic when you go to SD-DVD!

I don't really understand what is meant by "battle with Vegas" and so on. What has changed? Not much. There was an issue for some users with capturing HDV, but not for the majority by any stretch. I upgraded from a Panasonic PV GS400 3CCD SD camcorder to a Canon HV 20 HDV camcorder.

My process with the Pana
- Shoot
- Capture with Vegas external capture tool
- Edit
- Render and deliver

My process with the Canon
- Shoot
- Capture with Vegas internal capture tool
- Edit
- Render and deliver

The process is indistinguishable in practice. Have I run into snags? Only when trying to do some things that are not supported by Vegas yet, such as delivering on Blu-Ray or AVCHD and editing in 32 bit color space but that is extras compared to when I was shooting SD, so there is no added aggravation at all going to HDV from SD.

How do you find Raylight as compared to Cineform? Are they pretty comparable?