Great tip #1: Monitor this forum
Great tip #2: Practice some of the tips learned from Great tip #1

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Any sign of improvement yet?

Idivinag I used to splice 8mm Film That was good fun Even if very Time Consuming. UUuum Alan I dont expect to learn any Editing Skills Here Only How to Use VEGAS the Program. I have also thought that beyond Timing Editing is an Artform. But I also realise that tHERE MAY be Certain Advice from some of the More advanced Editors here that could help. Im expecting the usual go read a book But just Maybe Someone may have some genuine editing Tips as opposed to how to use VEGAS The program.

Anyway I thought it was worth asking

You can take any film/video you like, capture it, scan optically for scenes (www.avcutty.de), then look and analyze. You will find cuts you like, others you don't like, and generally much more cuts/takes than you are aware of just watching the film.
Anyway, if there's not enough footage from different viewpoints at different angles, there's nothing to cut to.
HTH A.

This is a very good question. Watching is always a good start, I mean watching a lot. Trick I've learnt is when you think it's done, don't look at it for a week, go onto something else and one day pull up an armchair and watch it again. Most of the time I wince a lot but at the odd time I'll think hey wow, that bit really worked.
Of course the best editing is when the audience doesn't notice it, maybe the best place to start is just learning to cut, first thing I did was on 16mm, dissolves were expensive, I think we had the money for two of them, camera was clockwork so you learned to keep shots short and tight. Just recently I tranferred that old fim to DVD, and there's a few bits that still amaze me as to how well we did it, guess we deserved third prize in the Sydney short film festival after all, we beat a commercial job shot on 35mm with a very big budget.
It also depends on what you're trying to edit but I think the best place to start is with drama, once you've got that down then start building up from there.

Thanks farrs Great couple of Tips ! I have also noticed how good editors make each clip merge by following through with actions, almost creating a dissolve that is not there. BUT IS .

I have me notebook out and hope to be able to write down ten forum top tips for editing spectacular vegas Films If vegas ever wants to be a professional contender then The Art of the Editor will make it happen.

A little reading: just try a search with words "Walter Murch" on the net and you should find some interesting titles, including "The Conversations,Walter Murch and the art of editing film" by Michael Ondaatje.
I know Murch wrote some books by himself too.

He can, for example, explain what motivates his choice of a shot, the beginning cut and the tail cut of this shot within 2 or 3 pages and just for that, it's candy for what you're looking for, Mark !
While looking for the book, you could try to rent these films that are "references" throughout the whole interviews:
"The Conversation"
"The Godfather 1-2-3"
"Apocalypse Now" all by Coppola
"Touch of Evil" by Orson Welles
"The English Patient" by Minghella

Cheers, you won't regret it !

Just developing what you've already highlighted, Mark - taking note of where the eye is focussed at the moment of a cut can help make it "merge" into the next shot, as can comparing light levels, colours and composition of the frame..

Every rule can be broken, but the editor should have a reason why he's doing so.

Some quotes from Murch

Nice ONE FUTZ :)


mark2929s Murch Link


Thought I had better remove it Dont wanna break any COPYRIGHT Laws !


Thanks ALSO Peter More Great Advice !

Edit, edit, edit your a$$ off. Find dumb scripts on the web or in kids books, shoot them with Lego characters or barbie dolls. Keep them short, but this will teach you to be a better editor, and a better cameraman. You'll need to learn audio better for doing V/O's, you'll learn to composite to create scenes, titles, and effects. You'll grow faster if you have a target goal behind the Vegas (or any other) keyboard as opposed to noodling around figuring out the small stuff without any real target you are trying to hit.
Learn the basics. With NLE's coming on so hard and strong, there are now lots and lots of 'editors' that have forgotten the basics. Things like 'which cuts depict what emotions' or 'moving stories along with creative editing' and learning to make the best of bad. I recently saw a 120 second short that featured one camera angle, lots of cutting, and it was brilliant. Told the story very well, and was produced by kids using action figures.
Spend a week trying to exactly mimic a certain feel. For instance, watch "Traffic" or "Payback" and try to emulate the feel. It's more than just slapping on a gradient or color filter and calling it done. It's also a lot about color curves and using color to lead the edit while advancing the story.
Dissecting other movies as Farss suggests is another great tool. Get all the books you can find on editing and Vegas, and build a bookshelf next to your toilet. Start the Atkins diet, you'll spend a lot of time in the bathroom. It's better than a library.

Spot Excellent Advice. If you could SEE, as "undoubtably you have one yourself". The mountainous amount of literature I have already. Its quite frightening. I am Metamorphising into a Vegas Machine. I keep waking up expecting to find the Logo on my Forehead.

No seriously I take onboard your enthusiasm and advice. Time to weigh the Anchor and set sail then.

I just hope I have an understanding crew over at vegasusers.com All these new productions >SPOT< has told me to START .

"Start the Atkins diet, you'll spend a lot of time in the bathroom."

Hahah.. this from a man who doesn't have any toddlers running around the house anymore... I find an excuse just to go to the bathroom so I can read.. Don't have any other time...

How do I explain the bookshelf in next to the comode when I'm selling my house? "this is the bathroom for the working couple.. here you'll see there's also LAN, Cable and phone services..."

mike

Kill your darlings...

Toilet Humour Aside.

I Think Spot has a very valid Point. and that is practise, practise, practise, AND Preferably get paid. At the same time.

Thanks SPOT

Great question but a tough one.

I think rule one is that their really are no rules anymore. Coming from a film background there were certian 'rules' because you had to mark off the correct amount of frames for a dissolve or a fade, if you cut 16mm you always had to loose a frame and a half on either side of a cut to allow for the negative cut, you had to remember that any sor of "effect" (Which included fades and dissolves) cost money and so on. So this in a way limited creativity to a small degree. Now if you cut with a computer and the ability to dump out a digital negative or a print you can do almost anything and not worry about effects or frames.

Having said that - if you aren't already than become a film watcher. And by that I mean when a film, or scene, feels really smooth or exciting go back and "watch" it to see how it cuts. In some cases maybe there is no cut. In other cases maybe there are many cuts. In others you may not even be able to tell their is a cut. I recently saw The Passion of The Christ and it is very well edited for maximum emotional impact. The opening of the film is very well put together, but it is not just editing - it is the look as well. In another thread around here I said The Stuntman is an excellent film to look at. The start of the film is very well put together because it was planned out - choreographed if you will.

You don't always have the good fortune to cut something that has been shot well, or pre-planned/pre-edited, so that it where the editor really comes into play. More than that this is where an editor can toss all the "rules" out the window to make something work. Is the film an action film? Than the edits should result in something exciting. Is it a horror film? Than the edits should reflect that. How this happens is dependant on the material. I think Mad Max 2 was a non stop action film and I remember feeling it was the music the was a driving force...oddly enough I don't remember the editing much. On the other hand when I first saw The Stuntman I walked out of the theatre saying "Wow, now THAT was a movie!" because of how it was edited and just flowed. When a Stranger Calls had the entire theatre on edge and it is probably one of the only films I have ever seen where the entire sold out crowd was screaming. This was a film that broke the "rules" because they had so many jump cuts in it and that is what caused the scares. Cheap edits to get scares? Yeah, but they worked and helped to make that film the success it was...without those edits you would have had a so-so suspense film but not too many out right jumps and screams.

I don't know if any of that helps you or not. I am really just saying that your editing should flow, meaning it should just fit whatever you are editing. It does not always work out that way but you can read all the books you want and it won't help you because it wasn't written about the exact film you are working on. Some people say you can't cut from a CU to a WS or that you can't cut from a moving shot to a static shot - but sometimes you have no choice because those are the only shots you have. Your job as an editor is to make those shots tie together as best you can so that they flow. If it is done right it just "feels" right. I can say a good tip is to work with a director who has edited because they really think different than someone who hasn't edited. You are probably less likely to get footage that won't cut together smooth because they are editing in camera so to speak.

Rather than read a book you could, and this sounds off base but really isn't, look at comics. Look at the way they are "edited". Some of those graphic novels are awesome insperation for films and editing style. Really comics are like glorified storyboards and many of them have lots of 'style'. Look at the recent influx of semi-mainstream acceptance of Anime in the United States.

Want to do an experment? Have someone take their camera and just go out and shoot random things - doesn't matter what, just have them shoot. Now have them give you that footage and you edit it. Create somethiing from nothing. Want to have even more fun? Give that same tape to 2 or more people for editing as well. Than compare the outcomes.

Filmy Superb Advice and thanks. Look at comic books is brilliant. This Im sure would also get your Imagination cooking I dont think we all realise How lucky we are to have such a wealth of Talent here.

It was a difficult question that went to the emotions as well as the intellect And It gave me a very good IDEA Of some of the thoughts of top People. I Know that editing is ART. And once learned you may Perhaps throw out the rule book . Then THE Fun part >>Paint your canvas<<< Many ideas as well to bear in mind.

A BIGG Thank you to all those of you that care enough to help Those of us. Who want to get on.

This is a bit redundant: just said in a slightly different way - one that I internalize; Tell the story and get out! As stated above, each shot should have it's purpose. When that purpose is told, move on. I've seen dozens and dozens of low and no-budget movies and shorts where the shot starts too soon and holds too long. Again, as stated earlier, every cut should have a motivation. If there's no motivation, the cut is probably coming too late - or too early.
I cut my teeth by creating :30 cable spots (AAA! I know! What tripe!). I really had to learn to keep every shot with a meaning. There's no time to put something in that doesn't hold your attention, teach you something or entertain you. The pace is paramount. Flow.
But I'm not advocating the MTV-look where everything cuts on the split second. Sometimes holding too long on a shot CAN mean something (Strangely, I just had a bizarre dream last night, where every cut held too long, providing a real sence of unease).
I also find it amusing (thinking of MTV) how ALL THE RULES HAVE CHANGED! Now, out-of-focus shots are acceptable. Forget the rule of thirds. Radical camera motion is now a norm. Need someone in frame, well, if they're partly in frame, that ok. Strange how bad camera techniques are now good camera techniques.
And even stranger is that all these "rule-breakers" have to be done WELL. Just throwing a shot out of focus (for example) would be JUNK if not done for a reason and still well composed and - edited.

Keep it simple, and focus on the story, rather than special effects. Learn the old, stodgy fundamentals first, THEN experiment. For a really good primer on these "tricks of the trade" check out the "Grammar of the Edit" from Focal Press.

I think film and video audiences have unconsciously absorbed some of these traditional, "old-school" rules. When they see a piece that conforms to these ideas, it's familiar, and they find it easier to follow the story. Break the rules only when you want to jar or disorient the audience (i.e., using "jump" cuts in a fight scene).

Things like:
- Cuts indicate action occuring in the same place at the same time
- Dissolves indicate a break in location, time or both
- Fades to / from black indicate the end of a major portion or chapter of the story

There are wonderful things you can do with sound coming ahead of, or behind, the video (sometimes called J-cuts and L-cuts). These can be so subtle that an audience won't even consciously notice, yet can be very powerful at foreshadowing events yet to come, or emphasizing events that have already occured. Originally a sound editor, Murch has some great descriptions of the use of sound in "The Conversations."

Some of the best film editing uses very little in the way of special effects, just well-timed cuts and dissolves.

watch the movie Fight Club..Its awesome it is in so many ways an important movie for anyone wanting to be an independent film maker.. it has revelation and foreshadowing.. All of these techniques to be an editor.. not only that its about an editor who splices film.. i wont say anymore go see it.. over and over and over again : )

Book Recomendation:
TRANSITIONS: Voices on the Craft of Digital Editing
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1903450535/qid=1079085080/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-1603101-5089627?v=glance&s=books

Relevant info on the editng side, not using the NLE.

Cheers.
Gary

Thanks Gary Brian Matt

Im Deciding Whether to buy some of these Books they Look really good. Finances are REALLY tight at the moment.

It is easy to create an edit that invokes a certain emotion out of an audience, but the most difficult things to do is to anticipate your audiences thoughts.

A master editor follows not just the action onscreen but also the thoughts of the characters and the audience.
Study the master of any art form and you will see that they follow the flow of thoughts with precise precision.

Sometimes the cut away is not the answer, a long hold on a character can create "layers" of thoughts and emotions.

I agree with BStanding you need to learn your fundamentals first, so you know which rules you are breaking and why you are breaking them.

This may sound like an odd book referral but pick up “Acting for the camera” by Tony Barr and read through the theories he talks about in the book

Thanks Mike I agree Its not the characters Its the information being collected by the viewer Which the Film maker is allowing through THE Way he does that is what makes up The individual Editor/ /Film makers style.