The most CPU/Vegas friendly HD codec for editing

VMP wrote on 8/23/2011, 10:10 PM
What’s the most CPU/Vegas friendly HD codec for editing with Vegas/pc?
I get jaggy Vegas-playback using the original AVC/m2ts from my camera. Its almost impossible to edit with. (See below for source video format)

My favorite codec for SD is PAL DV 'avi' it gives the best fps on Vegas.preview.
Guess it’s because Vegas doesn’t need to ‘unpack’ the codec as much as the AVC?

Is there a comparable (size/quality wise) codec that I can use to convert the original m2ts?
(Of course it will be larger due to higher res compared to DV)
Being the 'master source' its important that the converted file is almost identical quality wise to the original m2ts.

Is there any ‘avi’ preset on Vegas that I can directly use to do this?

I have Cineform 2.5v codec is that a good codec?
But when I try to render with cineform I get the following error:

‘An error occurd while creating the media file title.avi
An error occurd while converting with a codec.’

I have set the project to: HD 1080-50i (1920x1080; 25,000 fps).
Render as (custom) settings:
Frame size: Hd 1080
Frame rate 25 (Pal)
Field order none (progressive scan)
Pixel aspect ratio 0.9091
Video format CineForm HD Codec V2.5
Interleave every (seconds) 0.000

-----------------------
OS: Windows XP - Editor: Vegas pro 9.0e (build 1147)
-----------------------
Video device: Sony DSC HX100V
‘M2ts’ Source video format info:

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
626233022.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 23.8 MiB
Duration : 7s 647ms
Overall bit rate : 26.0 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 28.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=24
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 7s 680ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 24.7 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 26.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.239
Stream size : 22.6 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 7s 680ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 240 KiB (1%)

ID : 4608 (0x1200)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : 144
Duration : 7s 135ms

--------------------------------------------
Thanks for any reply,
VMP

Comments

VMP wrote on 8/24/2011, 1:32 PM
So no one converts their AVC/m2ts to an easier file before editing?

VMP
Geoff Edwards wrote on 8/24/2011, 1:51 PM
I don't convert my HD files from the NEX VG10. I am running Vegas on a Windows Pro. 64 bit machine with 8 gigs of ram. I do notice that sometimes I need to unpin tasks from the tray like Skype or turn off some apps to decrease lag. Also unplugged my Wacom Bamboo and it help improve things. Hope it helps.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/24/2011, 1:56 PM
Your post left out an important piece of information. Perhaps that's why you got no response.

Are you wanting a codec to use as a "proxy" or as an "intermediate"?
A proxy codec could be any low-grade format, that will be replaced with the actual footage after editing but before rendering.
An intermediate codec, such as Cineform, is a high-grade replacement for the original footage, which is presumed to be easier to edit, and from which the final product is to be rendered.

Your answer to this question will likely result in a number of helpful responses.

Also, the render settings you posted are incorrect:
I have set the project to: HD 1080-50i (1920x1080; 25,000 fps).

-- 1920x1080 HD is 1.0 PAR, not .9091 (which is for DV 4:3, totally unrelated)
-- If you use a 1/4 second interleave, your intermediate may or may not work better on the timeline. Experiment.

Once you correct the PAR, your Cineform render may just go as planned.
Another usable intermediate is Avid DNxHD, a free download. If you are just looking for a proxy codec, you can use just about anything you want.
johnmeyer wrote on 8/24/2011, 1:58 PM
If you don't need full HD resolution, then use the DV AVI codec, set for widescreen and use one of the proxy scripts to substitute the full-res video when you're through editing.

For HD, most people use MXF or Cineform.

I can never get Cineform to play back at an acceptable speed, but all I have is the Cineform codec that is included in Vegas 7. This works fine in 7 & 8, but is blocked by Vegas 10.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/24/2011, 2:04 PM
"This works fine in 7 & 8, but is blocked by Vegas 10."

John, I downloaded and installed the free GoPro Cineform Studio; it shows up and works in Vegas Pro 8, and is better because it will produce full 1920x1080. I'm wondering if it will show up and work in Vegas Pro 10 as well?

Caution: If you decide you don't want it later, you may have to reinstall Vegas Pro 8 to get the old Cineform 2.8 back.
VMP wrote on 8/24/2011, 2:34 PM
Thank you all for your replies.

Yes I meant 'replacing' the original '.m2ts' files in Vegas with a converted file by which the preview gets better playback.

I have just installed the free gopro cineform codec.
Now the render works! The external 'gopro studio' does not accept m2ts files (not a problem I use Vegas for the render anyway).

I see there are some different codec options ‘Higher HD’, ‘Film scan 1’ ‘Film scan 2’ I wonder what’s the ‘best’ quality option. I want to keep the image quality as good as possible.

by: musicvid Date: 8/24/2011 8:56:02 PM-- 1920x1080 HD is 1.0 PAR, not .9091 (which is for DV 4:3, totally unrelated)
I have set the 'pixel aspect ratio' to 1,000 :-).

I am not familiar with the proxy system, it sounds good.
But when working with 'chroma keying' for example the results you get with (temporary working file) DV is really different than with the (final) higher pixel HD during the work/preview process, how can one guess what the final product looks like during the work process?
musicvid10 wrote on 8/24/2011, 2:41 PM
Ideally, a proxy file should be the same colorspace and chroma subsampling as the output if you are making color decisions during the edit.
Your source (and output) are most likely REC 709 4:2:0
DV is RGB 4:1:1, so not a good proxy format for making those kinds of decisions.
In that sense, using MPEG-2 or MXF would seem a more reasonable choice.
Laurence wrote on 8/24/2011, 3:49 PM
.mxf is what I tend to use most often. In particular, the Sony brand of .mxf, which is mpeg2 video and uncompressed audio in a .mxf container. Very good quality, it smart renders, and it is super CPU efficient on both previews and renders.

I also use Cineform occasionally, and while the quality is theoretically better with Cineform, because of the lighter CPU and hard drive throughput load, and because I can't personally see the quality difference, I tend to use .mxf most of the time.

I use .mxf from both HDV and AVCHD cameras. With the HDV cameras, the video smart-renders into a .mxf container so the quality is exactly the same after the smart-render.

With my AVCHD camera (a Nikon D5100 DSLR) I apply cRGB to sRGB color correction during the rendering of my intermediates.

In both cases I render to long files with embedded markers rather than individual clips because Vegas handles handles a few larger clips more efficiently than it does many short clips. This is only the case with long GOP formats. With Cineform or the Avid codec, many short clips works just as well.

I also have a Canon SX1 IS that shoots cRGB at exactly 30fps rather than 29.97. When I use this camera, I both add cRGB to sRGB correction and slow down the footage to a standard 29.97 as I generate the intermediates (or longer single file intermediate with markers).

Also, I always flag my .mxf or Cineform intermediates as interlaced even though they are usually progressive. If you flag them as progressive they won't smart-render. With progressive, I just set the deinterlace method to "none". Progressive footage flagged as interlaced still looks like progressive and loses no resolution. If I have a mix of progressive and interlaced I do it the same way but make sure I keep the horizontal resolution the same on my final render. I can render a 1080i/p project to either 1920 or 1440 x 1080, but not 1280 x 720p if it is a mix of interlaced and deinterlaced. Then I run it through Handbrake with the decomb filter and rescale it to 1280 x 720p for Internet viewing.
johnmeyer wrote on 8/24/2011, 4:19 PM
John, I downloaded and installed the free GoPro Cineform Studio; it shows up and works in Vegas Pro 8, and is better because it will produce full 1920x1080. I'm wondering if it will show up and work in Vegas Pro 10 as well?I read about this a few weeks ago in this thread:

Free Cineform codec

but based on that discussion I was under the impression that it only worked with h.264 files and therefore wouldn't work for all flavors of HD, and possibly might only work with the GoPro video files. Is this true?
Laurence wrote on 8/24/2011, 4:25 PM
On the free version, the converter app that comes with it is picky about what formats it will convert, but you can still do a batch conversion from Vegas which would work quite well. Just use a script like Proxy Stream, Ultimate S, Excalibur, etc to do the batch conversion. If you are using a DSLR you may or may not have to add cRGB to sRGB correction at the same time. With my Nikon D5100 I need to.

I also normalize any dialog on the audio tracks at the same time, but I leave the audio on b-roll like it is. This makes it easier to deal with the audio levels later on as you work.
john_dennis wrote on 8/24/2011, 4:54 PM
From your system specs:

System #1
Windows Version: XP
RAM: Above 1gb
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad 9,6 GHZ
Video Card: Geforce Nvidia 8600 GTS
Sound Card: Terratec Dmx 6fire 24/96
Video Capture: OHCI compliant IEEE1394 card
CD Burner: LG 32x10x40
DVD Burner: Plextor 740 PX-740
Camera: Sony VX 2000

you should be able to work with AVC easily!

VMP wrote on 8/24/2011, 5:01 PM
Very good info!

Where is the (Sony version) MXF codec available?
I am guessing that it is not a build-in Vegas codec.

I would like to do some test renders.

@john_dennis
Yes I thought the same. But I am probably not using the full potential of the system due to running XP 32 bit instead of 64. Planning soon to go W7 64 bit ultimate, but need to finish off some projects first. Many software’s that I use would probably stop working, so its still a big change for now
WillemT wrote on 8/24/2011, 5:03 PM
I also installed the GoPro version. I works great in Vegas with any format -> Cineform. It is the included separate utility that is picky. I tried to uninstall the GoPro utility but then the Codec also gets uninstalled. So I just ignore it now and use Vegas + the Cineform Codec.

The Cineform Codec seems to only render to 4:2:2 which is of course no problem. It is great for Deshaker since VirtualDub also makes good use of it.

Willem.
WillemT wrote on 8/24/2011, 5:09 PM
Yes, build-in as Sony MXF in the "Save as type" drop down list. It has a whole selection of templates which can also be tailored using the Custom button. Works very well with Vegas but cannot be used outside of it by, for eaxample, VirtualDub.

Willem.
VMP wrote on 8/24/2011, 5:22 PM
@ WillemT

I see! thats great.
I am gonna do some test renders.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/24/2011, 10:15 PM
"but based on that discussion I was under the impression that it only worked with h.264 files and therefore wouldn't work for all flavors of HD, and possibly might only work with the GoPro video files. Is this true?"

That is true for the Cineform Studio GUI, which I found to be of very limited usefulness.
However, the new GoPro Cineform codec registers and is exposed for rendering in Vegas Pro 8, without any apparent limitations at all and renders at 1920x1080.
My question: Is this also the case with Vegas Pro 10? Is someone adventurous enough to try it and report back? It would seem to be a very useful tool if it is.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/24/2011, 10:22 PM
"Works very well with Vegas but cannot be used outside of it by, for eaxample, VirtualDub."

Sony MXF works just fine in Handbrake, and presumably as well in Avisynth and MeGUI.
PeterDuke wrote on 8/24/2011, 10:33 PM
"Your source (and output) are most likely REC 709 4:2:0
DV is RGB 4:1:1, so not a good proxy format for making those kinds of decisions."

NTSC DV is 4:1:1 but PAL DV is 4:2:0. I think VMP is using PAL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling
rs170a wrote on 8/24/2011, 11:09 PM
However, the new GoPro Cineform codec registers and is exposed for rendering in Vegas Pro 8, without any apparent limitations at all and renders at 1920x1080.

musicvid, I just tried it with a RED file (4096 x 2048 @ 23.976 fps) that I downloaded and it worked just fine in Pro 10.0e.

Mike
musicvid10 wrote on 8/24/2011, 11:38 PM
Works with 4K too? Incredible.

Seems like GoPro wants us all to edit their footage hassle-free in Vegas. (And maybe buy one of their cameras, too . . .)

David Newman in 2012!

;?)
PeterDuke wrote on 8/24/2011, 11:46 PM
GoPro Cineform Studio works with both 32bit and 64bit versions of Vegas 10.

Colour options are YUV 4:2:2, RGB 4:4:4, or RGBA 4:4:4:4.

Encoding quality options are Low, Medium, High, Filmscan1, Filmscan2, or Keying (whatever they might mean).

A 5.1 audio souce was converted to stereo, as with the full product.

It didn't install at all after the first try - no sign of it anywhere. However the second try worked.
Laurence wrote on 8/24/2011, 11:58 PM
>Sony MXF works just fine in Handbrake, and presumably as well in Avisynth and MeGUI.

Let me correct this: MXF video works just fine in Handbrake, but the audio in .mxf is done as two separate channels rather than a stereo pair. Unfortunately this means that you can choose the right side or the left side in a Handbrake encode, but not both. I have stopped using .mxf with Handbrake for this reason.
Steve Mann wrote on 8/25/2011, 12:25 AM
"Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad 9,6 GHZ"

That would be a screamer if it weren't a typo. The fastest overclocked PCs are only in the mid 3GHz range. CPU Magazine did a Overclock event at Fry's in Sunnyvale, CA this summer. There was a lot of liquid nitrogen there allowing their users to push 4Hz.

"OS: Windows XP - Editor: Vegas pro 9.0e (build 1147)"

I wouldn't try to edit AVCHD in XP or using Version 9. Except for the 9GHz, the PC that your profile describes would choke on HDV, let alone the heavily compressed AVCHD. You would see significant benefit in performance if you upgrade to Win 7-64 bit, and Vegas Version 10 is much better for AVCHD editing.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/25/2011, 12:37 AM
"Unfortunately this means that you can choose the right side or the left side in a Handbrake encode, but not both."

Oh yeah, I think I probably knew this once. Thanks for setting it straight.