"I hope someone reads this and adds it to Vegas 5! "

I'm sure someone at SoFo is thinking "I hope someone reads the manual". I guess that is how the phrase RTFM was created :)

I agree with both of the replies before mine.

There is a next/last frame feature in Vegas and it works quite well. And, it is explained very completely in the manual.

Although the forum here is a great place to get input and advice and training and such...the VV manual is pretty complete in it's explanation. Yes, there are some things that it either doesn't 'splain - or doesn't 'splain in a very "in your face" way - but it's pretty much all there.

What I like to depend on the forum for are things that are not really covered in detail in the manual. Things that are user defined, or things that are different for each user. For example....for my current needs, I do a lot of rendering to WMV files. I have found for my needs the preset 256 kps render works best and gives me the file size I need.

The manual won't go into great detail the size difference between (say) 500 kps vs 28.8 kps....or render times, or the best render for the project or better ways to deal with audio blah blah blah. Alot of those things are best learned by doing and sharing of information between users.

But....dare I say again (go on...I dare me!!) - I'd give the manual a good once, twice, three times a read through. You can get a lot of great information about what VV can do.

You would think the left or right arrows would move one frame but it does not...well, if you are zoomed in on the timeline it will but it does not 'defult' to one frame. Lucky there is a shortcut that will allow one frame - the F3 key will move it back one frame and the F9 key moves it forward one frame, now matter how far zoomed in or out the time line is.

It is kind of funny in a way. Everyone loves to talk about how easy VV is yet in order to do simple things you need to read the manual. I would think if it was really that easy people wouldn't need to read the manual. ;)

its all good and well saying read the manual but who wants to learn a bunch of multi key pressing shortcuts when you could just have a simple button you could pick up and use straight away.

I always zoom in so that I only see about 16 seconds on the timeline. At that zoom level, left & right arrows ARE one frame. If you don't want to press ALT, just zoom in some.

There are some very good keyboard shortcuts. You really do need to look at that section in the PDF manual or help file.

left/right arrow - move one PIXEL
ALT arrow - move one FRAME
CTRL arrow - move to next Marker
CTRL-ALT arrow - move to next edit point (cut, dissolve point, ...)

One of the problems I find with these multi-keystroke features is that I am not a "Constant Editor." That is, I may edit like mad for a few days and not touch Vegas for a month or more. Then, back to it for 14 hours a day for 10 days. But the first day is a waste as I have to relearn all those odd key combinations.

Yes, they are in the manual, and they are on my wall, but to get to the point where I use them without having to look at the wall for every use of every one of them takes about a day every time. Not very intuitive, in other words. Great program, but THAT part of it is not very intuitive.

And, to top it off, lots of programs have lots of combinations that are identical, but the results are vastly different. I'm not talking just about NLE's here, I am talking about programs in general. When I look at some of those "key-stroke help" cards that come with programs and they start telling me that:

Key-A does x
Shift + Key-A does y
Control + Key-A does z
Alt + Key-A does d
Control+Alt + Key-A does f
Control + Shift + Key-A does g
Alt + Shift + Key-A does h, and
Control + Alt + Shift + Key-A does r,


But if you go to another program, it is not the same, how is ANYBODY supposed to remember all that stuff.

Seems logical to me that the arrow key, alone, would be a foundation. That is, press the right or left arrow key and it would move one frame. Shift it and it would do a larger amount, Control, another amount, Alt, another amount, but ALWAYS using the arrow keys in increments. None of this having to be zoomed in or out to determine the use of any key anywhere. Never.

In particular, I think that having the left/right arrow move one PIXEL and having to use ALT arrow to move one frame is backwards. It ignores the foundation. And, to make it worse, a PIXEL changes depending on how far you are zoomed in. It is not constant. If you want something like that it should be a special combination, not the foundation key.

To make things simpler, the Shift, Control, and Alt key, and Control+Alt, etc., should always carry a proportional relationship that is always the same:

Key-A does x
Shift + Key-A does xx
Control + Key-A does xxx
Alt + Key-A does xxxx, and
Control+Alt + Key-A does xxxxx, etc. Key it always in the same increasing pattern. Never have Alt do something bigger than Control, as an example. That would reverse the relation ship. And I don't mean that xx is exactly twice x, either. Just bigger. And xxx would be bigger than xx.

My 2 pesetas worth.

"But if you go to another program, it is not the same, how is ANYBODY supposed to remember all that stuff."


Ahhh....but we are not talking about other programs and all of the different functions that this application can use with shortcut keys.

Pressing alt and the arrow button is very simple. Very simple to use - very simple to remember. And if forgotten - that what the manual is there for.

Oh my gosh....

Actaully I rarely use any keyboard shotcuts. That's why you have a pointing device. I prefer a trackball. <wink>

wcoxe1: i agree with you oppositely ;)

Actually i think that having the arrow key move one pixel is perfect because it varies with the zoom level. When i zoom in, i want the arrow keys to move through the file in tiny increments. When i zoom out, i want the arrow key to go through the file in leaps and bounds. The arrow keys move across the screen at a constant visual velocity and this makes sense to me. On the other hand, moving a frame at a time is a special function, at least to my mind, and it makes sense that you have to use a modifier key (Alt) to accomplish this.

Well at least one good thing about this message thread...

Those of us who read all the way through will probaly never again forget the key combination to advance a single frame.

JBJones

HAH!

>>>Those of us who read all the way through will probaly never again forget the key combination to advance a single frame.<<<

I did not think the F9 key was considered a "key combination" as it is only one key you need to push.

:)

I still think it defeats all the user hype about VV being so easy and so intuative if you need to actually (*GASP*) read the manual in order to figure out how to move one frame forward or back.

"I still think it defeats all the user hype about VV being so easy and so intuative if you need to actually (*GASP*) read the manual in order to figure out how to move one frame forward or back. "

Filmy - if there is user hype, let those who need hype have hype.
I have no use for it. I am a huge Vegas fan, but I never found it intuitive when I first started - it required a new approach, a new way of thinking, but once I re-oriented myself it became not only easy, but very fast and lots of fun - I don't mean that frivolously - I depend on editing for my living but I get a lot of pleasure because Vegas allows me to express my ideas so fluently.

Now, as to whether moving forward or back one frame should be intuitive or not - my intuition would tell me to use left or write arrows. I would not initially have realised that how far these arrows move the cursor depends on how zoomed in I was, but a bit of trial and error, looking at the frame counter read out while I did it, would soon teach me this. If I didn't happen to pick this up, then, yes, I'd have to look it up.

For me, moving ONE frame isn't a very common task anyway. I tend to move as far as I feel is necessary - the same with transitions - it doesn't matter whether they're 25 or 27 frames, I have looped preview running and drag the edges till it feels right.

Those who need a more mathematical approach shouldn't have too much trouble remembering a few keyboard shortcuts. My memory for this sort of thing is shocking, but I never forget a few regulars like Ctrl/Shift/F for ripple, Ctrl arrow for next/previous marker and Ctrl/Alt/Arrow for next event/transition ...

So, if the user hype is defeated - good riddance to it!

peter

A lot of whats be said here is very true but actually relates more to the issue of the shortcomings of using PC keyboards to control complex tasks.

I used to work in the control industry, big red flashing button meant big trouble, little yellow ones meant maybe have a look after coffee break. Then the PC came along and hey heck why do you need all those expensive panels with lots of buttons and lights. All I can say is if I'm ever in control of a reactor that's about to go critical I think I'd like a big red button labelled "shutdown" rather than ctl+alt+S. Of course if I cannot remember that its bound to be on a menu...somewhere!

So one day I was going to build a panel with lots of buttons and sliders and all those sexy gadgets that real editors get to play with and use that to drive VV.

But then I bought a ShuttlePro and now life is so much easier.

And one day some nice company will make a PC keyboard with all the VV keys highlighted like they have for Premier etc.

The Sofo approach to all of their programs is very intuitive to a degree and people
get used to this and expect "everything" to be kool and intuitive. Keep the faith as
this stuff takes time. My vision of this problem is like trying to automate a
telephone exchange with a billion functions that somehow can be combined to provide
the user with a smooth flow of information and understanding. Not many people
have that kind of "vision" implanted in their mind and you come up with "mush"
as in the old Adobe Premier.

JJK

"theres no next/last frame button! I can go to the next frame by gingerly moving the position bar but its alot more work than simply clunking a next frame button which im sure could be placed with the other time controls and not take up too much space."

THought I saw something once or twice in this thread 'bout rtfm... ironic 'cause they should have seen this. Add the buttons you need to the toolbar, in fact, prob the first thing I did a version back or so.

Just in case: option menu -> customize toolbar

Well, having read this thread, I gotta say that wcoxe1 is on the most logical track - to the way my brain works, anyway. Start with the basics, then add add options by adding key strokes. Works for me. There are lots of times that I like to step forward or back through an effect frame by frame. The left or right key would be my natural inclination. Alt+Key is just a memory thing. Not a problem, but not intuitive.

Buy a contour shuttle pro - then frame advance is a walk in the park, who needs a load of keyboard shotcuts.

shuttle Pro, Mouse and Menus/Menu bar the quick and intuative.

Cheers, PAW