RED - Yamaha pres!? ouch. I've tried them and their pretty harsh. Now I tried 01v, and 02R pres... Even the Behringer MX8000 pres fared better to my ears. you have an 03D? Maybe that's better but I'm fairly sure that it's from a previous generation. No doubt you could afford to upgrade so you don't have to use these?

Now I agree with you that the DBX 376 is a fine pre for the money, I've used them - but there are better out there. If you want to go for the best, you do have to plump up a bit more.

You do mostly film / post / low track counts? When stacking up 30 - 40 tracks on top of each other multitracking bands it definitely helps moreso to have a variety of colours and textures - and no EQ, compressor or processing can make up for that preamp variety. Yes you can make stuff fit together of course, but will it sound the same, no.

You do have to be careful about stacking up too many layers of the fat pres, you leave yourself with more work to make room for everything to cut through nicely.

Fat pres really do have their uses however!

DBXs are good, easy mixing pres - not too fat, not too thin.

I absolutely agree that engineering is first and foremost and that a crap engineer with great gear will sound crap.

There is a fine-line between budget, middle and ultimate however - if you want to get the best results, then surely you do put up a bit more money. Aside from that high-end preamps retain their value (Neve 1073!!), don't you always strive to get the best possible results?

The last 20% is the most expensive, unfortunately!

I think you'll like the Millennia HVA3-8

http://www.mil-media.com/docs/products/hv3d.shtml

8 channels of fantastically clear top of the range fully differential preamps for a very reasonable price per channel asking.

Had this unit in next to some 376s.... you'll love the difference. Borrow one off your pro audio dealer.

Jason

Totally agree with you Jason. I really don't use the Yamaha pre's. They're basically there for standby. I use two of them for talkback mics in the studio, one for me and one for the producer. I have 3-DBX 286a's and one 376. The only time I've used the Yamaha pre's is micing a drum kit, where they'll usually be used for Toms and overheads. So, I'm basically not worried too much about them effecting a mix too much, when they're only there for a few of the less critical drum micings. Most of the tracks use the DBX pre's, where I'm recording one part at a time and might have a few mics on a guitar. I'll usually switch between the 286a pre and 376 on the vocals depending on what I'm looking for.

How is drum micing less critical??? It is the crux of my existence!

I would use crappy pres on anything BUT the drums. ouch man. I know I have a different recording philosophy than most, but when I buy mics, pre's and eq's I really buy them for specific drums with the hopes that they will also later find uses for guitars, vocals and other things. I know most people mix from the vocals down, but I go backwards from that.

I'd be interested if anyone can describe "the sound" of vegas vs pro tools, independent of all other factors such as pre's, mics, plugs, etc. For instance, has anyone duplicated a project in each, using the exact instrumentation, mic's, pre's, room, etc. And if they feel there is a "sound", how would you describe those differences??

"How is drum micing less critical???"

Sorry, didn't intend for it sound like drum micing is less critical. I just leave the less of the critical drums like toms and overheads for the Yamaha pres. Where the kick, snare, and hat would be more critical to me. The Yamaha pre's aren't noisy, they just might not be as fat as more expensive pres. I rather spend more money on good sounding mics, than pres. I think they also sound good on certain snares, if I'm going for a particular sound. If I'm looking for a sharp thin, stab you in the eyes snare, then these actually work really well for that.

" If I'm looking for a sharp thin, stab you in the eyes snare, then these actually work really well for that"

You know, lots of times that particular sound would be just the thing to cut thru "wall of un-intonated, tuned to C, mesaboogie guitar tone"

I keep hearing about the yamaha pm series that people seem to like

Denser, Just recently I transfered a project I'd mixed in vegas over to Cubase and remixed there. Absolutely nonscientific, did not use same plugs et all. But I did find as I built up the tracks that I maintained more definition and seperation between intstruments with less eq. Is there a different sound in the summing? In my opinion yes.
Steve S.

yeah I know what you mean Red. My best pres do tend to get allocated to kick, snare, overheads, and then whatever's left goes on the rest! I'm have ordered more pres to remedy this now though, as I track drums all the time.

Mics are of course the first thing in the chain, and consequently the most important by a long shot.

Pipe and Red? What's in your mic cupboard, and what do you use them on?

I now have:

Audio Technica 4050 x 2 (Great! Overheads / Room Mics / Guitar Cabs / Acoustic!)
Royer R121 Ribbon x2 (Great! Guitar Cabs / Overheads / Room / Mandolin / Numerous Acoustic Sources / Some Vocals)
RODE NTK x2 (Very very good (great value), Vocals, Sometimes Room Mics / Louder Acoustic Instruments)
Neumann KMS 105 (Great, Snare / Live Vox)
RODE NT1 (Surprisingly very good on guitar cabs, and a great allrounder on a tight budget, doesn't get much use anymore)
AKG C3000 x2 (not a fan of these!)
AKG C1000 (don't like this much either!)
Shure Beta 52 (Great, Rock Kick Drum)
AKG D12E (Great, versatile, softer kick drum)
Shure Beta57 (toms, rehearsal vox)
Shure Beta 58 (toms, rehearsal vox)
Shure SM57 x 4 (they have their uses from time to time)
Shure SM58 x 4 (they have their uses from time to time)

Jason

AT-4050 x2 (Vocals, overheads, distant mic guitar cab, Acoustic Guitar).
AKG 414 x2 (Vocals, Voice over, snare)
AKG D112 (Kick, Bass Guitar)
AKG C430 x2 (Highhat, Overheads)
Crown CM-700 (Highhat)
Shure SM-57 x3 (Electric Guitar)
Shure SM-58 (Electric Guitar, Bass, Live vocal)
Shure SM-Beta 58a x4 (Toms, Guitar, Live vocal).

Heh cool. Those 4050 mics are fantastic eh?!

Funny, I haven't got on with em much for vocals in my vocal booth though - of course the acoustic environment you record in changes how microphones respond a great deal!

You use a 414 on snare? On the underside I'm guessing, cos I'd be afraid of the drummer smacking it!

Jason

Yep, got to be careful about that drummer smacking it. Most of the time what I'll do is bottom mic the snare with a 414, and reverse the phase on it. Then I'll top mic the snare with SM58 or SM57. The 4050's are pretty awesome, very sensitive. The only thing I don't like about them, is that the rejection is not that great. When I need the rejection, then I will reach for the 414. I found the 414 works better on Voice Overs, but tend to lean towards the 4050 for music Vocals. I find the 4050, has a little bump in the highend presence range, which is not too attractive for voice overs, but works well in music.

One night, me and a few other engineers had a jam recording session at the studio we worked at. Threw a 414 on the top of the snare, it sounded pretty good, but after a few too many beers, the drummer did exactly that...gave it a big ole wack. We did the right thing, and placed it back in the mic cabinet and didn't say a word, for the next engineer to run across the problem and take it to the studio owner to send it out for repairs. Damn clients....always breaking our sh*t!!! :-)~

Ive got

AT ATm-25 (kick drums usually)
3 X AKG D-112 (toms, bass cab, sometimes rarely kick )
2 x Shure Beta 52 ( kick, bass cabs, toms)
9 X Sennheiser E-604 (snare, toms, guitar)
4 X Shure SM-57 (snare, guitar, vocals)
6 X Shure SM-58 (snare, kick beaters, vocals)
2 X Shure Beta 56 (guitar, snare)
AT 4041 (snares)
2 X Nuemann TLM-193 (hi hats, rides)
2 X AKG 414 ( M/s Accoustic guitar, M/S overheads, 3 mic drum sides)
2 X Sennheiser 441 ( guitars, snares, toms, vocals)
2 X Oktava MC012 ( cant think of anything I HAVENT tried these on)
AKG Solidtube (kick front, vocals)
CAD VX-2 (kick front, vocals)
ADK 51 type 3 ( hi hats, rides )
Sennheiser shotguns of all sizes ( kick beater, vocals)

and a bunch of other stuff I dont really use but cant seem to part with like 4 behringer measurment mics, studer test tone mics, various handheld stage mics to give the "talent" something to play with, etc...

"AKG Solidtube (kick front, vocals)"

I don't own one of these, but worked at a studio that did. I was surprised how well this sounded on a Kick. I was originally using an EV RE-20 on kicks, but after I heard the low end the AKG tube got, placed on a kick, I never went back. Kicks sound huge with that thing.

Hey Red
The Solidtube doesn't sound too dark to you?
I have one that I can't get into to the sound for R&B, Soul, Hip-Hop and Rap.

George Ware

George I had to pull out that internal foam screen on mine. If you can get away with it that way its cool. I stuck a "bubble gum tape" candy container box on the body of the mic way below the capsule and tell everyone thats where it picks up from, keeps the p's and b's out pretty well

Thanks Pipe
I'll give that a try

George Ware

George, that's the funny part I really never liked the solid tube on too many vocals. Once in awhile I would get a femaled R&B singer, that it would sound good on and that was about it. I actually got more use out of that mic using it for a kick drum mic. One of the engineers I was working with, told me he used it on a kick and said it sounded great. So I happened to have a new rock session, who where pretty green in talent and decided to throw the tube on the kick, and I heard some low end on that kick that I never heard before. The owner of the sudio, didn't appreciate much that I was using his $3000 tube mic on a kick drum.

"LOL" Thanks Red,
So it's not just me.

George Ware

Have read alot in here about Behringer vs Mackie preamps.
I used a mackie 24-4 in my studio for 2 years.
Just lately I moved to a Behringer UB2442 to save space (and I liked the EQ able direct outs).
As soon as I hooked up the Behringer and played some music The Difference leaped out at me. The stereo spread moved in by about 30 degrees. It was amazing! I had no idea I would be able to hear the difference so quickly. I thought maybe in the mic pres, but not just on playback.

I still use the Behringer, it's small and works...but you can't really say the cheap stuff can't be deciphered from the higher end stuff on casual listen.