Those Ghost Images (continued) and FX connections

Richard Jones wrote on 2/21/2014, 5:42 AM
I should like to say a very warm thank you to everyone who helped me with the problem I described under "Ghosted Image on DVD and Nowhere Else" [Link=] but as we've narrowed down the problem area I thought it would be sensible to start a new thread.

We know now that the problem is not with DVDA or the rendering but rests on the Timeline where it shows when previewed at Best (Full). It seems to be hidden when looked at in my usual Good (Full) setting and I have zoomed the Timeline but without being able to see it there. I also know that there are no overlaid events on the track and, as I mentioned before, the problem seems to disappear when I copy and paste everything to a new project.

I have now reviewed every event on the Timeline one by one (over 500 of them - tedious and time costly!) and have now found that the ghost (which is always of another event -- but not necessarily the same one -- from earlier in the Timeline) disappears if an FX is removed from the chain applied to the problem event. It is not always the same FX (e.g. Unsharp Mask) that causes the problem as sometimes the removal of any one of the other FX in the chain deals with it.

It's almost as though the FX itself might contain within it a copy of an earlier event to which it has already been applied and carried that copy with it to be downloaded with the FX when it's applied to a later event.

I'm baffled I'm afraid and would welcome your ideas (not merely to resolve the issue so much as to ensure that I don't get it when working on other projects).


[I'm working with an up-to-date version of Vegas Pro 12 in Standard Definition in PAL 4:3. My FX are mainly the standard Vegas Plug Ins although I do sometimes use Frederic Bauman's as well. GPU is Off]


paul_w wrote on 2/21/2014, 7:35 AM
+1 baffled.

However, some thoughts.
500 clips. This is fairly big project. Maybe this is a ram problem ie. hitting a limit. How about copying say half of those events into a new project and see if that works. Trial and error i'm afraid.
Question, how many FX are in the chain for a problem event. 1, 2, 100 ? :)

Gary James wrote on 2/21/2014, 7:55 AM
Déjà vu. Doesn't this sound similar to the odd effects seen when the Vegas Swapped Media Bug makes an appearance?
Grazie wrote on 2/21/2014, 8:08 AM
Yes, Gary, agreed. I mentioned this back in the other thread. Something has been resurrected.


Gary James wrote on 2/21/2014, 8:23 AM
The OP may want to run a check on his project using the "Show misnamed Takes and Media" display filter in my Timeline Tools utility. I added this feature to detect Events that were affected with the Swapped Media bug. The filter looks for Events where (1) The Take name is not the same as the Media File Name; (2) The Generated Media Name and Media Path are not the same; or (3) The video or picture Media Stream in the Take is reported by Vegas to have a 0 x 0 image size.

Richard Jones wrote on 2/21/2014, 9:13 AM

Thank you. Yes it's a long project but not as long or as complex as a number of others that have gone through without a problem. There are usually two or three FX on each event but occasionally only one and sometimes six or seven, no more.


I'll have to download and install this and read/view the tutorials. From what you say, this may be very useful (if not just now then certainly for the future). A job for the the next few days I think.

farss wrote on 2/21/2014, 1:08 PM
One thought from the left of the field.

Is everything on the timeline, especially on track 1, quantized to frames?

musicvid10 wrote on 2/21/2014, 2:38 PM
Bob's onto it.
If your project was not created with QTF and Snapping on, it's going to be almost impossible to realign all those events by hand.

There is a script though, perhaps someone recalls where to find it.
farss wrote on 2/21/2014, 4:49 PM
[I]"Bob's onto it."[/I]

It really is a shot in the dark on my part as we still haven't been given the opportunity to examine so much as just one of the "ghosted frames" to get a handle on what's happening.

My shot in the dark thinking is based on something I've had happen with QTF Off by accident:

It is possible to leave behind events which are less than 1 frame long i.e. a single field and they're fiendishly hard to see and a pain to get rid of. My thinking is that if Richard had QTF Off even while editing his events on Track 1 and some fugitive fields got left behind on track 1 then they would create ghosts as Vegas composites single fields over the vision on track 2.

musicvid10 wrote on 2/21/2014, 7:22 PM
Your thinking is right on. The phantom "clips" are a dead giveaway for gaposis.
Just turning QTF and Snapping on after the fact won't fix it. The events won' realign themselves to frame boundaries without intervention.
Gary James wrote on 2/21/2014, 9:58 PM
FYI. The latest version v1.0.54 of Timeline Tools has an option to Re-Quantize To Frames either ALL or just selected Events. This option adjusts the Start and End locations of the targeted Events to the nearest rounded down absolute frame location on the Timeline.
Richard Jones wrote on 2/22/2014, 5:24 AM
Bob (and the rest of you who followed his line)

Worth a shot but unfortunately (?fortunately) Quantize to Frames has been on throughout --- that would have been a good answer.


I'm about to download Timeline Tools and will see if this gives us some information.


I was about to post a copy of the Preview Screen to try to show the effect (using Windows Snapping Tool and Dropbox --- another skill learned!) but now find that, even using Best (Full) the problem only shows itself on the external monitor without being seen on the PC screen even when I enlarge it.

Worryingly, I've now also found an instance where a later event is showing through as a ghost.

I'm beginning to think that the answer will probably be to delete the problem events and replace them with the same shots from Project Media. That's certainly going to be easier than re-editing the whole project from scratch and I think I'd rather go down this route than use the Copied project as it might lead to me finding a solution.


paul_w wrote on 2/22/2014, 5:29 AM
How does the QTF idea hold up if when Richard turns off an FX in the chain, the error seemingly goes away. And its not always the same effect type. I dont see how an effect on/off could have any effect with a single frame misalignment. He also stated in the previous thread that just by changing his NLE layout it had an effect on some of the problem events too. Saying that, i guess its at the stage where trying anything could lead to an answer. So not knocking the idea, just curious how it could be correct.

[edit] ignore, Richard you just answered my question. We posted at the the same time.

So you only see the error on your external monitor but not the vegas preview window? I think we just went a bit deeper down the rabbit hole... Thinking...

paul_w wrote on 2/22/2014, 5:59 AM
Do you have Studio 16-235 selected for your external monitor prefs? if so, try turning that off and see if the error disappears on the external monitor.
The only connection i can think of is studio levels showing with the error, whereas full RGB are not.
Would also explain why your DVDs show it too. I think Bob originally mentioned this in the first post. Still doesn't explain where the error is coming from but it may at least lead to an answer.

Richard Jones wrote on 2/22/2014, 6:08 AM
Thank you Paul for your interest and involvement.

I've now downloaded Timeline Tools and neither the 'Show Misnamed Takes and Media' nor the 'Show Missing Media Events' reviews show anything.

farss wrote on 2/22/2014, 6:57 AM
[I]" now find that, even using Best (Full) the problem only shows itself on the external monitor without being seen on the PC screen even when I enlarge it. "[/I]

That combined with other recent revelations leads me to very much doubt your problem is within the Vegas project file itself. There's a lot of things a messed up project file can cause to happen and we've been through all of them. A Vegas project file really isn't anything more than a lot of simple directions telling the app what has to go where and where the "whats" are to be found.

I'd suggest making certain anything GPU related is absolutely Off, doing a complete cold reboot (pull the mains plug for a minute) and if none of that helps trying running a suite of PC diagnostics and if all that fails an exorcism is in order :)
I'm saying all this because I'm far from certain that even going to all the trouble of rebuilding the project you'll not see the problem reappear and all that I'm suggesting you try is a lot less work than rebuilding the project.

musicvid10 wrote on 2/22/2014, 7:27 AM
That usually doesn't work. Adding the project media back to the timeline just brings the phantom "clips" back . . .
"Sometimes" deleting the media from Project Media, saving the Project, and reimporting the media works, but that's not a guaranteed fix.
Grazie wrote on 2/22/2014, 7:48 AM
Nothing for it! It's surgery!


larry-peter wrote on 2/22/2014, 11:36 AM
I know nothing about the GT320 video card in the OP's specs, except that its an OEM card. From my attempt to combine basic logic with an ignorance of inner software workings, it could be some sort of graphics driver or graphics memory issue.

If the reboot after discharging the system doesn't change anything, I would try a different driver, and if available, a totally different video card. Doesn't it seem like the FX chain is opening up an additional graphics pipe that is running behind the cursor position on the timeline?
Richard Jones wrote on 2/23/2014, 4:23 AM

Alas the disconnecting from the mains trick didn't change things.


The driver for my video card is as up to date as I can get it and is the only one I have on my PC. If I were to change it;-

1. Do you have any recommendations (without going over the top)?

And, as I'm pig ignorant about the internal workings of these things (both programming and hardware):-

2. Would it need to have a firewire socket (to run to my Canopus ADVC110) or does this run from the motherboard?

3. Are there any internal connection issues that will need to be considered or would a new video card just slot in place easily?

Thank you in advance and my thanks to everyone who has offered their ideas.

paul_w wrote on 2/23/2014, 5:53 AM're welcome :) free time on my hands here.

did you happen to try that test, external video prefs -> Studio 16-235 to off? does that clear the issue on the external monitor?

Also, when you play your burnt DVD back, are you playing it back on your PC also through your Canopus interface or through a proper domestic DVD payer?.

Richard Jones wrote on 2/23/2014, 6:40 AM

I haven't been able to find a way to configure my external monitor preferences the way you suggest even after scouring the Help Files. The monitor runs through a Firewire connection but I don't know if that's relevant.

The DVD's have been played back on both the PC and two different DVD players but the problem is the same. But as we now seem to have brought the problem back into Vegas itself I'm not sure this takes us much further forward.

paul_w wrote on 2/23/2014, 6:49 AM
Its in Options->Preferences->Preview Device->"Adjust levels from studio RGB to Computer RGB" tick box.
Try changing the status of that tick box and see is that clears the error on the external monitor.

The idea here is to see if 16-236 playback levels is the issue. If it is, then we are on the right track to finding the actual problem.
I asked about your DVD players to rule out any issues with your Canopus on playback. But since you have tried playing back your DVD on a commercial player still with error, then it rules that out.

paul_w wrote on 2/23/2014, 11:09 AM
Can i assume by the lack of response to that last suggestion, as logical as it is, that this is something you feel beyond worth trying? We have all spent time and effort helping here but if the conclusion is now that this is a closed matter, i guess i have to walk away. Which is against my fault finding nature. However, if you feel that way then fair enough. I dont see anyone else here with a solid answer, sometimes we have to speculate to gather results. There is no quick fix, if there was, it would have been said in the first few posts of thread 1.
Good luck.

Richard Jones wrote on 2/23/2014, 11:20 AM
Sorry Paul but I've been away from home all day and am responding from my Tablet. I certainly intend to look at this again when I get back tomorrow afternoon and shall report back then. I am certainly conscious of just how much everyone has been doing to try to help me and it's very much against my nature to be ungrateful.