I was going to wait for Glenn to reply but...

I'd be tad conservative here. The EX1 already records to 108%, doing a Studio to RGB conversions sounds to me like you could cause clipping. I have tried EX1 footage in 32 bit and although the scopes show the levels being shifted further closer ro clipping it seems the 32bit precision saves the day. Adding a Studio to ComputerRGB conversion onto the front of the process might be another matter entirely.

Bob.

Bob: Explain exactly what you do to make this conversion? As I see no difference I may be doing it wrong? I know Glenn says to do it.

Now, my question is this: does all the above apply to the EX1's HQ mxf's, as well?
I just downloaded a EX1 HQ MXF... the same seems to apply as HDV and MPEG-2.

(Unless there is something different about the MXF files we are using... e.g. if yours were converted to Cineform or something like that. The Cineform codec is a different beast.)

If you change your project settings between 8-bit and 32-bit, and you see that the EX1 footage levels change, then it's probably behaving like HDV and Mpeg-2.

Just wanted to make sure, because - unlike with HDV - I can see the preview of my mfx files is rather pale in the preview window, unless I apply Studio to Computer RGB conversion.
Maybe this is because your footage actually is washed out???

In that case I'd figure out if its:
A- Just flaring in the lens. Use the Levels filter and adjust input start to get rid of the flaring (the scopes can be helpful here, but only if you set them up correctly + interpret them correctly).
B- Something is wrong with the camera settings.

I know Glenn says to do it.
I don't think I recommended that he manually intervene and apply any conversions.

In any case, I'd consult the table in my article since there are many variables.

http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas/v8color/v8color.htm

Glenn, thanks for the answer, but please be patient with me as I'd like to have it clarified.

Your table says that HDV, MPEG-2 (and now MXF from EX1), decode to Studio RGB in 8bit, and to Computer RGB in 32bit Vegas projects.

This is consistent with what I see in the preview window:

1) In a 32bit project, the MXF image has more vivid colours and broader range - just like the HDV from my V1E.

2) Also, in 8bit project when I apply Studio RGB to Computer RGB conversion, I can see the same effect - more punchy colours (logical, as I'm getting Computer RGB just as if I loded my MXF into a 32bit project).

What confuses me is your remark that I see the effect 2) above "because my footage is actually washed out" - why would you say that? Isn't getting more vivid colours and broder range normal when applying Studio to Computer RGB filter normal?

If its _NORMAL_ (and I think it is, basing on you table, but _IN_SPITE_ of your comment I bolded out above), for simple edits without compositing etc. I'd stick to 8bit for speed, but apply the Studio to Computer RGB conversion - is it a wrong method?

My post crossed with Bob's - I'm still unclear!

Probably where the confusion comes from is the "Decodes to and wants to see computer RGB" statement. I suspect some are reading that as meaning to apply a studio to computer conversion to the footage.

Bob.

Bob, I think I understand this statement properly; "wants to see Computer RGB" means that if I bring something else to my 32bit MXF/HDV project, it also needs to belong to this colour space (or convert it if it doesn't) - right?

If I want to know whether to apply the conversion to Computer RGB on my "time-saving" 8bit MXF projects is simply because what I see in the preview window after such conversion looks better to me. Am I thinking in the wrong direction? Or perhaps what my final render is going to look like is yet another matter, not related to Vegas preview?

"it also needs to belong to this colour space (or convert it if it doesn't) - right?"

That's the way I read it however with the caveat that your EX1 is already in ComputerRGB. If you image is looking a bit washed out then I think adding another Studio to Computer conversion will liven it up. Doing the same thing to footage that was already exposed well to the right might not be such a good idea though.

Keep in mind that your preview window is quite likely not correctly calibrated and/or incapable of correctly displaying any image. Many LCDs are only 6 bit so trying to display an 8 bit image is a bit difficult. Also when you switch to 32bit you should either recalibrate the Preview window, or apply the inverse conversion as on FX in the preview window or simply not rely on what you see in the Preview window at all.

Bob.

Poitr:

I'm still lost here but either way your image should not be washed out. My images are very, in fact I'm thinking too much, saturated on the Vegas time-line with no processing. And changing 32 to 8 or scopes to computer or Studio makes no difference.

Have you played your camera image direct to a TV via the HDNI vis the SD? If the image there is good then you have a problem with your Vegas settings.

Can we try to keep these discussions in the one place??

Between here and DVInfo it's getting very confusing!

Not that I know where this really belongs or which part of the equation is which, is it the camera, is it Vegas etc.

Just to do my bit to avoid any undue further confusion I'm Bob Grant on DVInfo.

Bob.

Or perhaps what my final render is going to look like is yet another matter, not related to Vegas preview?
Yes. The final render is unrelated to what you see in the Vegas preview window. Or rather, the Vegas Video Preview window is not necessarily what your final render will look like.

Isn't getting more vivid colours and broder range normal when applying Studio to Computer RGB filter normal?
Yes and no (depending on context). If you apply a "studio RGB to computer RGB" color corrector preset, then the image will look right in Vegas but the render will be wrong. So yes and no.

What I would recommend is this:
Don't apply that color corrector preset. It's dangerous if you forget to take it out.
Instead, preview via firewire (in the chart, the DV codec expects studio RGB levels in both 8bit and 32bit; this method doesn't work well in 32-bit). The second best thing to do would be to use the windows secondary display device for previewing instead.

Thanks Glenn; it's very strange one cannot really trust Vegas preview window... And I am not talking about the LCD being calibrated or not, becuase on the very same LCD, when I play my raw MXF's using WMP, they are beautifully saturated and punchy - it's the Vegas preview window where they turn pale and washed out...

And this is the reason I was fooling around with the Studio to Computer RGB preset, because - in Vegas preview window - it helped my clips look similar to what they look like outside Veags, just played back in WMP.

I have made a couple of short test renders and yes you're right: the final renders looks OK without Studio to Computer RGB conversion (they look exactly like the raw MXF's do in WMP on the same monitor), while those final renders with the conversion to Computer RGB applied show strange colour over-saturation (patches of partially blown-out orange on humans' faces, for instance).

But this renders the Vegas preview window useless for any colour grading - almost hard to believe!

What also beats me is that I have only noticed this with the introduction of 32bit video processing VP8; with Vegas 7 I happily edited my HDV clips without even thinking about colour space conversion...

This is why I started this thread - to make sure what has really changed:

the final renders looks OK without Studio to Computer RGB conversion

Just to add that the above statement from my own post is true provided I set the 'Video Format" to PAL or Component (and NOT NTSC) in the Advanced Video tab of the "Render as..." template.

Which makes me wonder if what Vegas preview window is showing is in the NTSC video format, and hence looks desaturated compared to my PAL original clips?

Just as a follow-up:

I have turned the colour management on, and checked the Studio RGB on the Windows Secondary Display properties sheet - what a difference! When I click the "external monitor" icon above Vegas preview window, before the monitor switches into the overlay mode, I can see it increase the colours' saturation and dynamic range - what I can see full-screen is now exactly the same punchy colours and levels as in the raw MXF's. All this _WITHOUT_ unnecessary converting the colour space in my mxf's, and in 8bit mode...

Of course, if someone uses a separate monitor, it will do the trick as well. Thanks Glenn!

Piotr

Piotr...

The story gets ever more confusing.
Using an external monitor in Vegas, where the monitor has been color calibrated with something like a Spyder spectrophotometer, helps to represent colors more closely to the final display than the Vegas Preview window. Unfortunately, the external monitor resolution(as driven by Vegas drivers) is nowhere near the resolution of an LCD display screen. As a result, the correction for sharpening plugins are not accurately displayed in the Vegas external monitor. I've consistently oversharpened my video until I discovered this problem.
SO, use the external monitor for CCing and use the Vegas Preview window for judging "sharpness".

Holy cow, FCP is looking better all the time.

Can't confirm your observations, Bill - with the preview set to Full/Best, the sharpness is the same as outside Vegas (to my eye).

1) I think you're confusing the external monitor with the secondary monitor.
2) Judging sharpening on a 24" LCD is probably a mistake, it's just too small.
3) I'm not certain about using devices like the Spyder. It calibrates using ICM profiles. a) The app/drivers might not use them b) You might be calibrating the monitor for print and that could be a mistake.
4) FCP / QT has some issues with gamma, seems more like the road to hell than Nirvana.
5) Unless you've got really deep pockets get the final grade done in a post house with the gear and experience. Then you just need deep pockets :)

Getting a bit away from here. I had a first hand glowing recommendation of Baselight. The guy was gob smacked that what he'd seen on the projector in the suite was identical to the projected print.

Bob.

I agree with Bob that this thread is a bit DeJa Vu, and I know Bill has written me a reply at the other place that I have not read yet, but I must say to Piotr and others my experience is the reverse. I make no color space changes either in 32 bit or 8 bit and I am NOT judging by the Vegas preview window or a secondary display. I am rendering to DVD and then playing in Blu-ray player to big screen LCD TV, and I get same image on TV screen as I see in the raw mxf files - no need for me to do a conversion. Now is this not the opposite of what Piotr is saying or is he and others doing two conversion that cancel out?

Michael,

Just to clarify: I settled with doing NO conversion of RGB spaces, and - as long as I only do basic editing - stick to 8bit (if only for faster renders). The final rendered files are in every inch as good as my raw mxf files.

The real levels and colour saturation of the material being edited I can assess now using full screen preview as described above (the preview window is not showing the right colours, compared to what I get in final renders).

The discussion in two threads here and three on the DVINFO EX1 forum - while very interesting - really seems to lead nowhere.