Can you save it as an *.EDL format in ACID????

This concept is a joke, SF knows it and their arguments against it BLOW (much like the arguments you'll read here from MORONIC users trying to defend this idiotic game plan - worrying about "bugs" before their even there. Yet they're somehow all "peachy" having all these video features in the application (????), even if you can shut it off.

Talk about turning your back on a flagship app that could bring TONS of more users into the SF realm. Christ!
I would start promoting SF once again if they decided to bag the CHEESY current marketing ploys and just did as a professional A\V application can and should do.

I would KILL to be in on any one of the SF R&D or marketing meetings. I would give a scolding backed with facts like NOBODY'S business. I'd find replacements for those hanging this process SO FAST it would make heads spin.

Do the ONLY thing you need to do SF - make vegas and Acid one application.
You guys have the best UI design around, why not try and be #1?

Instead of giving whole new meaning to the word "complacency".

JoeD

Nope, I don't agree with you. The one monster application for all is just never going to happen - yet. It will happen with the introduction of a networked application environment with good resource management. That won't happen until hardware resources can support such. At this time you see the early signs of this with those folks running a couple of computers at a time, often dedicating one for just midi. But we're not just talking about hardware. We need development of a whole new type of application, something like an operating system for an entire network that's running not just i/o hardware but also multiple open applications all capable of sharing data in realtime. However, I did just post another thread, asking for Sound Forge's Acid Loop Tools to be added to Vegas's Media Trimmer. What can I say? Dream on and don't quit asking for more.

>>I would KILL to be in on any one of the SF R&D or marketing meetings. I would give a scolding backed with facts like NOBODY'S business. I'd find replacements for those hanging this process SO FAST it would make heads spin.
<<
Ok, give me the facts. Spare the emotional arguments and your opinions.

umm is that the agenda? something you can sell for approval? this is exactly our complaint about this dialog. We are not on the same page. You complain how we ask and don't have power to say anything but no anyway. We just ask for anything we want because... it would make us happier with the product. It's really pretty simple. You listen and then ask your people if now is a good time to commit resources. If you don't understand what we ask for and why - well, it's just because we want to make it better. I know, I lost you. What the F! I'm listening to tracks I just did in my new most exciting program - Renoise. Goddamn, I'm finally just getting into trackers!

Just Love,

P.S. I want to open .acd into the currrent .acd project. In other words, add all the work from another session as additional tracks inside the current session. And that goes for all software. Get right on that!
GJW

No agenda. No complaints.

JoeD said he has facts he would present. I have heard his emotional arguments and his opinions. I would like to hear is facts. He obviously believes he has an insight into this market niche based upon some factual information he has. I want to hear this.

Users always want more than what they have. They don't like the direction. They complain.

Realize that many users don't want the Hybrid ACID/Vegas app. It is not just a matter of nickel and diming the users as JoeD claims. I assure you it has nothing to do with that, but you don't have to believe me.

I just want to hear these facts. I want to be convinced that there are solid reasons to merge Vegas + ACID.

Peter

The reason for merger is a general paradigm some of us pursue. What we want is the eventual development of an immersive data browser/composer. Yes, it's a long way off yet, but that doesn't mean the direction is lost. By keeping focus on the long range goal, the vision stays focused. The trick is to help direct the current toward that goal. Trick is not the right word. I mean lead. A good leader doesn't need tricks. Communication is the key, and at the core of the paradigm we pursue.

I would rather see new features in Vegas 4 rather than seeing it merge with Acid. The one thing I'm afraid of is Premiere Pro... The one thing I want is that V5 blows Premiere Pro in the dust... And the first step towards this is better timeline/media managment.

Sorry, I was incorrect about EDL in Acid. Doesn't have it.
bgc

ACID and VEGAS serve two separate core functions. How many people today can master both disciplines/products? Video has it's own sub-specialties and so does audio.

It's great that a rendered file from ACID will work in Vegas. It's also great that you can view video in ACID. Merging the two (want Sound Forge in there, too?) would most likely mean a serious re-write of all apps from the ground up.
Wait a minute...maybe SONY has the cash to....

First off, anything I'm going to say ...anything...is going to be met with immediate debate with you Peter (it is "peter" correct?). I know this based on your reply and past replies It's that flippin simple, so I don't expect you to sway in your staunch belief that an acid\vegas application is pure non-sense\voodoo\badmojo\whatever is your latest excuse on the matter.

ok, we're talking AUDIO here Pete, so let's not drag in any video functionality.
We on the same page?

Now let's take Sonar as an example.

The areas of importance for the average\intermediate buyer are roughly as follows:
- FEATURES
- FUNCTIONALITY
- UI
- STABILITY
(remember"average\intermediate buyer")

SF has designed THE best UI in the game as far as the straight line concept for getting from point A to point B.
A close 5\5. Exellent!
The ONLY "consistent" (re-read that Peter..."consistent") poor remarks being made of Sonar is it's UI design. I only know this of current and past clients, many, many msg boards, students of mine,etc.
The positives I come across however reside in the realm of FUNCTIONALITY and FEATURES.
They love having one audio application handling 99% of all audio design\eng\editing.

As of V3c, in the area of stability, you have eased into a 4 out of 5. Great.
**I'll leave V4 out of this , the ratio there is more of a 2\5 (adequate...eh, I don't like adequate. Bet you don't either.), but it has possibility of coming along.

FACT: Word of mouth reports are crucial. Consistent reports of an AUDIO applications pros and cons are what can decide the leading app. SO TIME ISN'T KIND TO THE COMPLACENT.
SOMEONE "IS" GOING TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND DESIGN AN AUDIO APPLICATION THAT ADDRESSES ALL THE USER WANTS WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE O.S. it's designed for. It's why we now have a choice of MANY great trackers.
IS IT GOING TO BE YOU OR SOMEBODY ELSE THAT DESIGNES A POWERFUL APP (ACID\VEGAS) WITH A SUPERIOR UI?

This will lead to a mass fanatical posts\emails about the new product, mostly in FAVOR. Word of mouth, best advertising you can get.

Cake Sonar has that now. Why can't SF?
Another example, we know PTools, but ever hear of RME, a company that is doing well via (free) word of mouth advertising. Sonar shares this fanatisicm to some degree. Where is SF in this rating?...somewhere in the middle? Adequate (there's that word again).

Now, go find out the sales figures of Sonar and Vegas dating from inception to today (which gives more than adequate time to claim realistic assumptions).
What we're going to find is that Sonar will have the dominant figures here.

Go re-read the features list of Sonar.
Numbers never lie...these people were willing to overlook your superior UI to the functionality and features of the competition.
These facts aren't negotiable between you and I, from the newbies to the pros, the sales numbers are what tell the story today.

Ok, so we know SF has the better UI, excellent ratios in STABILITY,
now there's the important FUNCTIONALITY and FEATURES.

Buzz, updates occur far too infruequently (feature updates, not just bug fixes).

A cheesy marketing stance of CONFINING a choice of either working with loop based music, (with your video?..hint-hint), a decent timeline, and offering multiple input recording is marring BOTH OF THE APPLICATIONS BY A CREATING FLIMSY, COMPLACENT, NICKEL AND DIME little line.

Yes - nickel and dime.

It's SOOO FLIPPING OBVIOUS.
Come on, Don't sit there and quivel with me on how this all reads. No, I'm telling "you", it's not the other way around (There's that "emotion" Pete mentioned kids).
I'm "the user" telling YOU how I'm seeing these two applications separately.
Understand?

Is it a question of "is it possible"?
You mean to tell me you have a team that knows how to design an incredible UI, stay on top of reports to create EXCELLENT STABILITY, yet cannot meld ACID and Vegas into one usefull app...WITHOUT PISSING OFF AN ENTIRE AUDIO COMMUNITY?
Really?
Where was this audio community worry when the Video features were introduced?
And hmm...Wow, that's some powerful little functionality line you've boxed yourselves into.

Just try it. I know...I know, it's easier to play holier than thou and claim all the pros of the app AS IS rather than going the extra mile (especially with where Sf is now) but try it.

Bloated? BuL*shit! Buggy? Bul*shit!

Let's take VA 1 Pete, I'm not bothered by the video functionality in VVideo when it was VA's latest update.
I've seen how users here play a role in helping obtain the best STABILITY (and your developer track record is excellent as well, working in conjunction with in-house test teams).
I'm telling you - I really want to see this applications merger. I want that functionality.

PC-wise...
I go back to SForge 1. This is NOT the old SF anymore. I remember when forge was the flagship of SF, and they remained there for quite some time by paying attention to all the four areas of importance.

I have used Sonar and have completed multiple input rec, over loop based tracks (all created and completed in sonar). It works, it's great to have it all available in one app...but
I feel you're UI and STABILITY for this kind of work in ONE APPLICATION would eventually prevail. Word of mouth alone would ensure this.
Call me CraZy.

Now on a side note:
Where the f**k do you get off pissing down the back of a SF user since day 1, because he wanted to see SF continue and thrive with a top selling flagship product?
Huh?

jacka$$. Where's your head at?

Hint, You're reply here is the "worst word of mouth advertisement possible" for your products. Nice.
Have you been in the game a bit too long? have you forgotten the game?

What do you want, everyone (an SF forum??) to tip-toe around telling you everythings great so YOU can feel better about RE-STATING THE SAME 'OL PROS OF Vv and Acid AS THEY STAND NOW?
Or is it really just kinda complacently being "adequate", and guising it up with posts as to how it shouldn't be done, how it will AFFECT ALL THE USERS and POTENTIAL USERS?
My God how this new SF cares and looks out for me. Thanks SF!

The old Sf would have already HAD THIS FUNCTIONALITY, HAD ALL THE FEATURES and stabilty would have already GROWN BY NOW.
All the new SF has done has compartmentalized the products in nice, tight little non-compatible packages (tight enough to choke a possible larger user base) from a marketing standpoint of "limit the goods guys"...run by the crack marketing team of Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe.
Nice!

Please, play innocent with someone else Pete, it's pathetically predictable.

Now I'm done EXPLAINING why I would like to see this, but really, tell me... how can you predict what "the buying customer wants" without trying it?
This forum? (LOL!!) Come on.

The old SF would have by now....that's the truth and you KNOW it.

Sonar\PT\ Nuendo\maybe Cubase continues to be, on average, the application I must reccomend to beg-intermediates...even some pros with home studios for an app that does it all reasonably well for the price.

Why shouldn't that be SF, Pete?

I don't expect anything but "it aint' gonna happen" from you Pete, but what the hell..I'll throw caution to the wind.

JoeD

Dear VEGACID friends

with much interest I followed your heated discussion but my problems remain unsolved and it seems as if there is no immediate solution.
I certainly do not mind working with two apps, both specialists in their fields (lean management) or one monster app (I usually do not trust monsters).

I was recently told that we are today living in a century of MULTI media!

How can it happen that one and the same company has a cutting edge product for audio and one for video but no intelligent interface between the two?
If some of the functionality would be frozen (e.g. direct X automations) or midifiles would render into audio when importing to vegas I would not really mind.

But instead I am sitting here with a complex 5.1 soundtrack for a fashion show (which obviously was produced before) and a documentary video and I have no way of welding the two productions together. (DV cameras do not yet record in 5.1)

The discussion whether monster app or lean apps is utterly pointless in my eyes. Instead, to find a solution to an obvious problem, which is a workable interface or converter or a shared VAGACID file system, should be the task.

A solution has to be found (at least for me and this is no complaint) and I would rather like to know when this solution will be available.

I will now cut the video first and then do post-5.1-sound in ACID. Just doubles the rendering time.

TIA

The solution need not be the monster app, but two apps that communicate to each other efficiently via Re-wire.

This provides value for money, as the user only buys the features he/she wants to use.

I.E. Your primary goal is music creation, you buy ACID.

your primary goal is multi-track recording, you buy Vegas.

You need creation, looping, editing and multi-track - you re-wire the applications together.

I can see how a monster app would work, but this would also... if slightly more complicated to market.

Oh yeah, Rewire! We've been asking for Rewire over and over again, but.....

On the one hand it would be great to have the two apps sold as one ... if one didn't affect the performance of the other.

On the other I can think of another piece of software that has attempted to do this: Microsoft Word. Talk about bloatware ... I say if you want tables and equations and crap use Excel and strip all of those "extra" functions out of Word. Too many buttons ... too many choices ... word-processing features are buried under needless crap.

I'm not saying this WILL happen with Vegas and Acid, the two apps are much more similar to each other than Word and Excel, but I don't want it to happen.

Personally, I'm not happy with all the video stuff in Vegas ... but I'm not complaining either since it doesn't "seem" to affect performance. My fear if SF started combining Acid and Vegas is that they would use the Acid "engine(s)" which seem to be optimised for smaller sound files. Maybe I'm wrong though, any SF engineers want to elaborate?

I agree with webpuppy. I think the 2 apps should be able to interface together but not merge as one - at least at this point in software development. This is not because I wouldn't like having everything in one app but its just that I just can't see how merging won't compromise stability. Although theoretically this should not be the case, an objective look at how things currently are in the real world certainly indicates that this is a huge problem. In terms of Sonar, I personally can't stand it and have 2 colleagues that struggle with it all the time. It appears easily as buggy as Vegas 4 which is simply unacceptable for me. I've yet to install Veg 4 because of the continued problems and to even consider moving forward with merging Vegas and Acid seems completely absurd at this juncture. Hell, Acid 4 only recently got fixed! Yeah they should get it together and fix it but for whatever reason, it's a slowwww process and SOFO isn't the only one having a hard time with this kind of thing. Tried any Steinware lately? How long has Cubase been around? ;-)

drbam

I was very disappointed with the modest improvements to the audio side of Vegas in both versions 3 and 4.

I felt like SF had turned their back on us audio users and that Vegas was slowly turning into a Video app that had audio capabilities. (Very annoying for me, but if the dollars are in the video side then who could blame them?)

A couple of times now John has indicated that V5 is going to have some major work put into the audio side. This is really, really, really good news.

I’m sure we all wanted a whole bunch of audio features much sooner. Unfortunately for us, SF saw a different market open up. Every company has finite budgets; for a couple of years it seems they chose to put the bulk of their resources in the newly emerging video direction.

They seem to have sold loads and loads of copies of Vegas to Video enthusiasts.

From the outside it looks like they made pretty sensible decisions.

Bring on V5.

can you copy and past acid projects into vegas? never tried this, but the other day i just dragged a file into sound forge. i didnt know you could do this. i will go home and try it tonight.

>>>>Cake Sonar has that now. Why can't SF?<<<<

I have to agree with JoeD here, although not his methods, if S/F is interested in the majority of the music market. I answer many posts over at garrigus.com if not the majority. It's not a proprietary forum but the majority of users are Sonar/CW owners. I've suggested, pointed out, advantage after virtue regarding Vegas in the majority of areas related to tracking and editing including the integration with and benefits of Sound Forge especially since the majority have Sound Forge but tend to use Sonar for audio editing, conversion etc. forgetting they have it in their Sonar tools menu. The interest in Vegas is constantly sparked when I post it's capabilities in many areas including now some video that I'm myself exploring primitively even posting links to some of my work. I must say I've been blown away by it's video features and for a few month have lurked the Video topics forum for info.

>>>>They seem to have sold loads and loads of copies of Vegas to Video enthusiasts.<<<<

True enough, just by the shear numbers in the Video topics forum this would seem to be fact, you better not have a life if you plan on monitoring this forum for any length of time :-)

Anyway I've stayed out of the "request" threads until now but I must point out that when I'm questioned about Vegas the massive stumbling block is always the dreaded "It doesn't do MIDI?" question.

The fascinating thing is that this one app. gets praised so heavily (deservedly so) by it's users in BOTH the video and audio realm making very good arguments for, why Vegas should be the "Standard, Premier" app. surpassing both PT, Cubasis etc. AND Avid, Pinnacle, Final Cut Pro, etc. in their given fields. Very impressive for one app. competing in two markets.

I too would like to kick CW to the curb and do my MIDI editing in my tracking app. A dream come true would be a Staff View and Piano Roll and the ability to synch in all formats as both master and slave and have a tempo adjustable timeline. I realize this is not easy just pointing out the perspective from here.

MJ

I think the 2 apps should be able to interface together but not merge as one - at least at this point in software development. This is not because I wouldn't like having everything in one app but its just that I just can't see how merging won't compromise stability.>>


jesus christ, do you stay home in fear of getting killed in a car accident too?

Comparisons of MS Word with audio applications?
Peter...you're basing your stance from posts like this on your msg boards?
These little forum "buddies in agreeance" you have?

(It's like...
I remember another app that had bugs...Betty Crockers recipe CD. Yeah, i don't want an all in one app....I want to have separate recipie programs for each dish).

This is what I'm talking about... panic speculation...all the way to complete idiocy.

Check it out people...
You are now working out bugs for V4 (yes - YOU - THE CUSTOMER, are helping SF better V4. It's called testing).
Based on this, would you demand to cancel\pull V4 (not that many others havn't already)?
Cut the shit with stability freakouts...you few sound like goofballs.
Many are looking at a bugged out V4, yet I don't see you guys asking for your cash back...or video functionality to be pulled out, etc
(btw: how do YOU know the video enhancements aren't a cause to V4's current problems?).

It will be as stable as the user base allows it to be.

If you pull your money when SF says "that's the way it will be - no further updates"...it speaks volumes, but you few here sure as hell aren't doing this with your bugged out V4. Get off the fence and stop with the hypocritical posts you spew off.

A company like SF doesn't want unstable applications, they want your money....and I firmly believe a Vegas\Acid app would eventually have the stability the user base requires.
Is this really NEWS to you though?
It's always been the same game and you know it. Eventually, the application becomes solid.

What has SF got to lose anyway? They're getting creamed by the current competition...and that bothers a person who would rather use SF's UI.

JoeD

I have my latest issue of Home Recording magazine here and they just finished their 4 part article on 'Killer Apps'. Let's see, they did Pro Tools, Cubase, I forget (was it Logic Audio or Nuendo?) and this issue its SONAR. No mention of Sonic Foundry anywhere. Its just not considered a Killer App, although many of us (including JoeD) like the damn thing.

In a quote from the Editor's Letter: "With Logic Audio a Mac-only application now, Sonar competes with virtually no one but Cubase for the recording hearts and minds of PC users"

So what would make Vegas a killer app? Hmmmm.... maybe combining the features of Acid and Vegas? What a novel idea huh JoeD?

Modules? You like the video?
Switch it on.
You need MIDI?
Switch in on.
You a loop based artist?
Click. You've got Acid.
Multitracking?
Vegas is ready.

But with the Sony buyout and the future uncertain, who knows. As far as I'm concerned, a one application that finds stability over a six month period of testing and kicks the butt of the other uberapps is just a dream.

But one can only hope.

I'm back to tracking in Vegas. Looping and MIDI in Acid. Editing in SF and waiting for the company to tell me again the reason these need to remain, in the ever changing industry, separate applications.

Hey, IMHO if SF added midi to vegas or multi tracking to Acid that would keep me from going out and upgrading my PT mix 24 to HD. Oh Yeah, PT now runs on PC w/xp. I guess the problem is, I'll still keep up with the SF upgrades because for the most part, I love their UI. BTW, Nuendo and Cubase SX still have some major issues..........unreliable dongle for one, try and take Cubase on the road for location recording.................uuuuhHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!