Upcoming Project - Need Video Camera Advice (and lots more)

PumiceT wrote on 10/31/2004, 1:29 PM
My friends are in a band (Snapcase.com) and they're having their final 5 shows in January 2005. I've been asked to record all the video footage and do the editing. I own Vegas+DVD (version 4), a desktop PC with a 1.2 GHz processor and a Sony Vaio V505 (1.4 GHz Pentium M) with FireWire, and that's about all.

So, between now and January 2005, I need to get some equipment and upgrades. I will start off by saying that I prefer Sony. I own ALL sony home audio and video.

Keep in mind this is going on DVD and being sold commercially, but I don't have an official budget yet. Feel free to post low-budget items and mid-level items as well as some dream items, you never know, right? I'd like suggestions for the following items (with the important features below):

Video Camera (which format? MiniDV?)
- Reliability
- Battery Life
- Video Quality
- WideScreen Capability (even important - or is that best done in post-production?)
- Ease of Use
- Image Stability
- Low-Light Sensitivity

Upgrade Vegas to 5.0 for $250?
- maybe a no-brainer, but you never know

Plugins
- Anything that you think is indispensible for commercial-quality production.

Upgrade PC (for SURE)
I usually build my own PCs or upgrade from what I have. My tower will support a standard ATX motherboard. I assume I'd upgrade the motherboard, processor, RAM, Video Card. The motherboard will likely have USB 2.0 and FireWire built in. Here's what I have that I'd like to use, if it makes logical sense. If you see anything here not worth using, or worth replacing, let me know your reason(s):
- Adaptec 3000S Ultra-160 SCSI RAID card and 3 16-gig Ultra-160 SCSI drives available, but not currently being used
- (2) 120-gig IDE drives (one of which is set up as external USB 2.0 & FireWire)
- I have an M-Audio 2496 Audio Card
- Plextor UltraPlex Wide SCSI (CD-ROM Reader)
- Plextor PlexWriter 24/10/40A (CD Burner)
- Standard 1.44 floppy
- Network Card

For 5 full days of recording (never more than 2 days in a row) - 2 weekends of Fri-Sat, and another single day:
- How much tape should I expect to need?
- How many battery packs (and which ones) would be best to have (assume both that I will and won't have access to power - might be best to be prepared for the worst).
- Assuming this is a typical DVD with some extras, maybe secondary audio (if it's not too difficult), and titles and menus... how many hours should I expect to put into it?

Should I do this as 5.1 surround? If so, what audio card (by M-Audio?) (NOT SOUND CARD) would be best-suited?

I'm assuming at LEAST 80 hours of post-production, along with the 80 or so hours spent doing the actual recording.

Aside from what I've listed, what am I missing?

Comments

farss wrote on 10/31/2004, 9:09 PM
Cameras:
Forget anything MiniDV, you need ones that take DVCAM and I mean large format, think DSR 570 or XDCAM, add decent sticks and controllers and good optics.
Audio:
Record camera mic into every camera, this is mighty handy for syncing in post, get separate device for recording stright from desk and make damn certain, on pain of death that the sound guy(s) know you want a recording mix. If possible have a separate desk just to mix for you or record evey mic onto multitrack and mix in post.
Post:
Don't even think about 16:9 in post, you were joking right?
Other things:
LOTS of HDs, I'd be thinking TBytes.
Dollies and cranes.
PAs (never have too many of them,), runners, pro comms gear. Organise shifts for the crew, this stuff is very tiring, the operators are less reliable than the gear these day. You can change a tape in seconds, a wee takes a while longer!

Scared you off yet, you did say commercial quality.
If you were really serious you'd have everything genlocked, including the audio but that'd add another "0" to the budget.

Or you could just shoot on a handful of TRV 80s and let some mug fix it in post :)
Bob.
Grazie wrote on 11/1/2004, 1:28 AM
Scared the pants off me though! . . ppphhhaorgh .. .

G
farss wrote on 11/1/2004, 2:06 AM
Grazie,
your right, maybe I'm being a bit full on!
I've seen good work done with 6 DVX 100A but the guys had a lot of experience and shot the same band over multiple nights. This job sounds much more intense than that and I do worry if some guys really understand just how big some of the steps are in this game.
A few weeks ago I had to 'fix up' what should have been a dead simple job, shoot an all day conference. Now the events took place in 30-40 minute segements. Should have been a no brainer right?
I mean bung a new tape in during the break. Hah, no way, those little tapes are so expensive, so when you think you're going to run out of tape, well just flick the camera into LP. Now don't even mention that small detail to the mug trying capture the stuff whose tearing his hair out wondering why the old VCR goes nuts half way into a tape. And I wont even talk about the audio, I mean the events a talkfest so why should what was said have been important?

And at around the same time I cut a number of music videos by guys who'd never used a camera before, live sound so they hired a pro to mix it and a fine job he did. These guys worked out all about sync problems so every number starts with the drummer counting the band in with three nice cymbal hits. We cut six clips in fours hours, nothing really brilliant but nothing horrid either, cuts look good, finally got to have some creative input instead of polishing turds, what a change. And the client who'se a Protools user was blown away by Vegas.

So what's the message here, well at the end of the day I think it's all about planning, experience helps no end of course but it can also make you staid in your ways. A lifelong friend of mine still cannot believe you could shoot a concert without a full OB crew!

Some real advice:
Have one camera locked off on wide.
Another camera to pickup audience and make certain the guy with that camera does NOTHING else!
Use another one for pickups of the band.

Try to keep all cameras rolling, it makes sync that much easier, but if they all have the same tape capacity start them 5 minutes apart. Don't try to skimp on tape or batteries and I was serious about relief for cameramen and support people.
Why did I say make certain the guy doing the audience shots does nothing else? I've had this happen, nine (yes 9!) cameras rolling, I'd asked 7 operators to get me some audience shots and everyone swings around to get the action on stage and not a single frame of audience reaction!

Hope all this helps someone.

Bob.

Grazie wrote on 11/1/2004, 5:10 AM
Pants back on!

Bob, yes of course you are right. As you know I do things mostly single handed. When I can get my long suffering partner to assist, she will "tend" the wide angled "locked-off" camera. Now before you blow a raspberry at me, the on board Canon XM2 mic with ATT ON is marvellous .. yeah yeah I can hear the raspberries right up in Pommie land. But, Canon got this mic very sweet. Okay, I'm out and about with audience shots and the line - this was a Gospel band last week. Came back to base, sync stuff up, and I'm now reviewing it through Excalibur mulitcam wizard. For some reason, only known to myself, I had selected the wrong preset for the locked off camera! IDIOT! . . Ok, stuck a sample through V5 CC and Voila! Back to matching my Run 'n Gun stuff.

First question I ask the performers, "How long for the whole performance? What's the longest section you do?". If they say each set is 45 mins - new tape on each - tape is real cheap. I never ever ever LP .. NO! Don't go there! Unless it is video footage you don't need and you are only wanting some failsafe audio to sync to.

Of course Bob is correct on both substantive points:

1 - Plan and then PLAN! I've been known to write it down!

2 - make sure that ALL cammies are running AND there is enough tape to go around AND people know how to change tapes AND to know when the machine is ACTUALLY recoding .. been there . . done that . ..

The "scary-pants" thing may also have been me hearing our colleague asking for support on something that I wouldn't attempt until I had much more experience under my belt. Community events and the odd bit of controllable corporate business, I'm yer man .. the full on rock band thingy? Er. . seeyah in 2 years time!

Grazie

.. ps: BTW Bob, that new JVC monitor is earning its keep! Couldn't have done this last bit of CC without it .. or at least not with the level of confidence I can now be assured of.
PumiceT wrote on 11/1/2004, 6:16 AM
Eeeek!!

Let's assume this has a much lower budget. I have a feeling it won't be the huge production that I may have made it out to be. While I'd love to have multiple cameras, I don't think the band is considering that as an option. My guess is that each show will be used to capture an angle of the performance. Those 5 shows will be pieced together for each song (obviously using the best audio from whichever night - they have their own sound guy that I trust to provide an excellent mix).

I realize I'm probably up against a monster here, and yes, I'm an "amateur," but, that's what Hardcore rock is all about!! They don't sell millions of records, more like 20,000. The shows won't have 1000s of people in the audience, more like 100s. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. They DO work with a record label that does have some money, but this isn't like Capitol or Sony Music here. :)

Keep the posts coming. I'm thinking something along the Canon Optura Xi, or a Sony DCR HC1000 at best. Probably more likely a Sony DCR HC85. I know. They're not the "best," but I'm not a pro, they KNOW I'm not a pro, and I don't expect the budget to allo me to get a pro camera. Maybe a rental.

PS - No fair contacting them and offering your services. :)
farss wrote on 11/1/2004, 6:28 AM
Grazie,
for many things on camera mics are OK, not great, just OK. Biggest problem I have with pretty well all of them is a) camera noise pickup b) picking up things that shouldn't be there like "What sort of camera you got there matey?" or "Can I buy a copy of that stuff?"
For anything musical though forget it, still keep them running for sync though.
I really hammer this point because it's not until you hear the difference and not just in the sound but you see how it affects the clients perception of your work.
And there's a trap, the effects can be very subtle. Our brains are very good a picking detail out of sounds but it takes work and that leads to fatigue. I'm pretty certain listening fatigue has a major impact on audiences reactions to movies. In the corporate world where staff might be 'forced' into watching something that's way longer than it should be I'd be pretty certain the impact is even higher.
So how does that play out in terms of business?
This is the scenario I see, the client thinks the video of the AGM looks great, he sends copies all around the place but pretty well no one stays for the end (if they can avoid it). But no one really tweaks to why that's happening, so next year they start to wonder if it was all worth the effort anyway. You (or I) will never get blamed because the connection isn't obvious, they just think it's cause it's a boring bit of video that no one wants to watch. That might be true but if it's also fatiguing to the audience to listen to it then there's a real double whammy.

Bob.
farss wrote on 11/1/2004, 6:36 AM
Pumice,
with a good sound guy and two even single CCD cameras you should be able to do a good job, as I said above my client who'd never used a camer before managed it so you should be laughing.
The sound guy did have his own mixer, mics and DAT though.
Be warned of one thing, if the SPL gets high enough some on camera mics go into overload which is why you may need separate sound gear.

What freaked me out was I got the impression you had a big venue with an audience of 1000s, these can be scary events quite apart from trying to shoot video, stick someone in the crowd with a camera etc and if it isn't done right personal safety is at stake.
Bob.
Grazie wrote on 11/1/2004, 6:52 AM
. . I also have Senni kit: Wireless Mic and MK66 . . wouldn't do the stuff I do do without it. I'm short of a good ambient . . AND a sound Guy. I don't rely on the onboard for that - promise!



Grazie
craftech wrote on 11/1/2004, 8:11 AM
Your biggest concern should be the lighting and the sound at the venue itself and not the camera. My own experience has been that both are usually horrendous for video.
You need to speak to the person who will be handling both and see if they can accomodate your specifications or pay them to do so otherwise you will have vodeo and audio that will be a nightmare to edit and the final result will be a compromise.
The lighting will probably be carbon arc and that will be unflattering in terms of the colors. Backlighting is important and if you can bring your own lighting person that would be great. If not map out the hot spots ahead of time and keep the band members out of the hot spots or their faces will look like grunge. The light should not be changing or flashing. Band members are often forgetful so you need to rehearse all this with them and convince them that unless all these things are done the results will be poor and the band will look poor as well.
The sound person in the clubs may need to be bribed, but if you can have your own sound person operate the board that would be the best provided that person knows what he/she is doing. That will mean that the sound person you bring has the opportunity to familiarize him/herself with the equipment. Hiring a pro who is familiar with lots of different sound setups would be the best. You may want a feed from the sound board and also a backup recording from a DAT or ADAT to work with. The key is not to have the sound too loud in the club. Lower than normal will yield better results for the recording which in the end will be plenty loud enough. Distortion is the enemy of good sound and usually cannot be successfully corrected without removing the fine nuanced sounds that separate an OK recording from a great one. Again, if possible all of this should be practiced AHEAD of time. In other words you need several tech run throughs.
For the camera itself you can rent one. The larger the CCD's the better. Three 1/3 or Three 1/2 CCDs would be best after the editing and rendering and encoding is done. That is why renting a $10,000 camera may pay off. Another option is to use a DV Deck with a 3 hour tape in it and feed the camera into that. It will extend the shooting time and the deck can be used as a capturing source for Vegas 4.

John
Jsnkc wrote on 11/1/2004, 9:38 AM
I do lots of shooting for local bands. I use a GL2 for the camera and get really good results. A couple things you will want to do is first, get a recording of the sound directly from the soundboard. Prety much all sound guys will have some way to record the sound off the board either to CD, cassette, a computer, just get something. I normally take the sound that was recorded off the board, and mix it with the sound that comes off the camera so you still get some of the crowd noise to give it that "live feel". For lighting, tell the lighting guy to avoid red lights! Red lights in a dark room can be a nightmare! I get in fights with lighting guys all the time, at least the ones I work with seem to love red lights for some reason. ANother thing is to get yourself some kind of riser to stand on, most of the clubs I shoot at are all one level and it's not easy to get the camera over the peoples heads and record the band, so it's easier if you can get up a little bit higher than the croud to see over them.
PumiceT wrote on 11/13/2004, 12:20 PM
Ok. I got more information...

The DVD will be more of an overview of the band's history. Video from the final 5 shows will be less important than I originally thought. Mostly interviews with people and some backstage shots, as well as some live clips, but not shown in a "concert" way. It's unlikely that they'd even use one whole song from each performance. Most of the footage we'll be using already exists on video, in photos, or in audio form. So, that said...

I'm thinking of getting one of the following cameras... Any advice would be GREAT. (I keep thinking I "need" something with video input / pass-through, but I have a feeling I'd end up with the Canopus ADVC100, so that's not too important.)

Canon Optura Xi
Sony DCR-TRV70
Sony DCR-TRV80
Sony DCR-HC85

In the sub-$1000 range, am I missing an obvious choice?
riredale wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:17 PM
This thread shows that there are lots of ways of accomplishing something. In my own limited experience, pro gear counts for something, but technique counts for more.

I am in love with my VX2000, and it meets every one of your original demands in spades, except for the widescreen request. The camera is bulletproof, very light-sensitive, 3ccd, battery lasts for 6+ hours, great optical stabilizer, sharp lens... shall I go on?

Now that the VX2100 has been around for a year, and the new Sony HDV camera is coming out, perhaps you can find a couple slightly-used VX2k machines for not much money. Or maybe rent them locally.

I'm just finishing up my summer choir tour documentary in surround sound. I shot about 24 miniDV tapes in LP (90minute) mode with my two Sony cameras. I recorded 4-channel audio, and can attest that throwing in the rear 2 channels really switches on the "you are there" effect. Funny thing is that after a few seconds you no longer notice the rear channels, but if you then switch them off it's a horrible sensation.

My homebuilt PC currently sits with about 800GB of disks inside, with about 75% filled. I'm using a Santa Cruz Turtle Beach audio card, which I like because it has a 10-band graphic equalizer that I've used to tune my surround speaker system as flat as my spectrum analyzer can show.
vicmilt wrote on 11/14/2004, 3:43 PM
ya know....
if you were my kid...(ouch - I'm so old...) I'd suggest posting right here for someone with experience who lives in your area to subcontract the job.
What you'd give up in profit (not all that much, really) you'd WAY more make up in sleep; Plus you'd deliver a professional job, which your clients deserve, AND you'd come away with a new friend and the experience you NEED to produce a project like this.
Think of it - no cost for cameras (he/she would have professional gear), no terror about forgotten details (what you don't know can KILL you), no stress about OJT and THEN delivering a final cut you can be proud of.
... that's what I think - I have sub-contracted out elements of jobs for my whole career. It's tough to be a GREAT cameraman, director, producer, editor, salesguy... especially when you are asking the kind of questions that you have - - my way...In the end you remain the Producer and take the credit for a job well done. That generally leads to more work, and in the ultimate end, that is the name of the game (as a career, anyway).
mfranco wrote on 11/14/2004, 6:49 PM
I'd like to suggest that you get a good feel for the songs and the performance in general. Talk with the band and find out who will be playing a solo or if some section of a song will feature the rhythm section for example.

This knowledge can help with setting up some possibly cool shots of a soloist or other action on stage and, I believe, will improve the overall quality of the video because the camera is not 'chasing' the performance on stage.

One other thing is that if they have more than one guitarist, make sure you know which one is doing the lead or solo! (This goes for horn players and singers also). Too many times I have gotten the perfect shot of the guy who was just strumming and missed the guy who doing the fantastic fret board work.

Lastly, have fun.

mfranco
busterkeaton wrote on 11/15/2004, 3:17 PM
You may want to look at Panasonic's line of inexpensive 3 chip cameras.

If you can find a Panasonic PV-DV953, you may want to get that. It's discontinued now, so you may be able to a find a good price. The PV-GS70 is also a 3 chip camera at less than a grand. Just over your budget is the well reviewed PV-GS400 which B and H Photo has for $1200.

You probably want to ask yourself, what is more important getting the best video for this shoot or getting a camera that I can use when the shoot is done? If the best video is the most important, you should look into renting better gear. Sony's VX2100 and PD150/170 have excellent reputations for low light shooting.

When is this shoot taking place? You are looking at a lot of things to do before production. New Camera, New computer, 5.1 sound, in additional to preproduction, location scouting, etc. I would try and minimize each of these steps. You may want to buy a pre-built machine. While the gear is nice to own, I think that if you a looking to build a professional reputation, a completed project you sell/show will be best in the long run. Once you show you can do it, you can charges rates that will allow to buy the gear you need.

If you are not recording without top notch equipment, you probably don't want to try to do 5.1. My understanding is that for good 5.1 you need to record differently, more mikes, different spacing etc. Also you need a 5.1 speaker setup. If you want to learn 5.1 I suggest after you do this DVD, you use the same material to try a 5.1 version.


PumiceT wrote on 11/16/2004, 11:40 AM
So many things have changed already since I made the original post.

1.) The performances have been reduced to one local final show. That's it.

2.) The recording of the actual performance is not very important. Even at VHS quality, it'll be fine. It's a band that is pretty "do it yourself" minded, so it almost SHOULD look bad. What I'll be responsible to record will (mostly) be interviews, practices, and other footage from the crowd and some live stage shots. The rest of the DVD will be audio from interviews (with some of the video being shown, too) and photos, video from existing sources, and the like.

3.) As stated in #2 above, the footage I need to capture needn't be "top-notch," sorry for making you guys think in that direction. So, let's think along the lines of the "practical" thing to do for me. The budget (that they can provide for me) is likely to be $2000 - $4000. I have other (better) things to spend that money on than JUST a video camera. I'll use a camera for personal projects and family things, but I doubt I'll be using it professionally, so something in the $600-$900 range (at discounted prices, not MSRP) would be acceptable. I'd love something that can do 16:9 directly into Vegas, and I wouldn't care too much how it shows up when played from the camera to a TV. If I'm gonna shoot 16:9, it will be with the intention of making a DVD or something, not showing people directly from the camera. So my qualms (maybe I didn't post this here) about the Canon Xi are pretty silly, as long as the output to Vegas would be pretty painless.

That brings up a question I have about these cameras... when you transfer from the camera to a computer (via FireWire) what files result? MPEG? AVI? If they're 16:9, do you need to re-crop them in Vegas for them to show up properly as 16:9???
busterkeaton wrote on 11/16/2004, 12:16 PM
avi is the filetype for Video for Windows. So using Vegas to capture from a camera would result in an avi file. (You can have many different types of avi file, but on your camera and on your computer would be miniDV which is technically known as DV25. Essentially Windows puts the DV25 data in a avi wrapper). MPEG is a more compressed format than avi generally.

In the $600 to $900 category you are not going to find 16 x 9. If you do, it's usually a cheat, you shoud do the 16 x 9 in post. You should also know that when you convert 4 x 3 to 16 x 9 you going to lose parts of the image, so you just need to be aware of that when you frame your shots.

Here's an example.
groovedude wrote on 11/16/2004, 12:36 PM
I shot a friend (boy that sounds bad) when he was playing a gig at a local club and I just used a cheap miniDV (Canon I think) and it turned out looking really cool and raw.

Light sensitivity is a big concern, the stage had some color lights going but no strong white spot light fills, it was very dark, so this cheap miniDV made these dark shots look really grainy--But that is what made the footage look so cool, it looked like old 8mm footage even though it was a DV camera.

If you want 16:9 get a camera that can shoot in that aspect ratio.

Vegas has a capturing utility in the program itself (review manual), but between you and me, I've never had good experiences with it. There is a free capture program out there, you can do a search and find in this forum somewhere, it seems to work better for me than Vegases capture utility. Capturing software makes .avi's (some will make mpeg or mov etc., stick with uncompressed avi).

You will need some hard drive space for all this footage, you may want to think about getting another hard drive or maybe a large external firewire, I have Lacies 500Gb--been working really well for me. But be aware that I've heard some complaints about Vegas 5 (XP OS) and firewire devices not working. I'm still on v4 also.
PumiceT wrote on 11/23/2004, 12:42 PM
Well, due to budget, and other logic, I'm going with the Canon Optura 40. I found it for $654 shipped, from ElectricSam.com - they claim to be an authorized Canon dealer. I would have gone with the Xi, but I can't justify spending $200 more for what seems to be just a larger camera with only a couple other (unimportant?) features. I think once this project is done, I'd be more likely to use the little Optura 40 vs. the larger Xi.

ElectricSam.com is out of stock, but they should have it within 14 days, at which time they'll contact me for re-approval.

The 40 has (from what I can tell) the same 16:9 mode, same CCD, less motor noise (according to the CNET review), and with a smaller LCD display, it may likely get better battery time.

Anyone have comments? Concerns? Did I do the wrong thing?
RalphM wrote on 11/23/2004, 3:17 PM
Take heed of the audio recommendations offered previously. Viewers will forgive so-so video, and sometimes garish video fits the mood, but bad audio is like fingernails on a chalkboard.
PumiceT wrote on 11/23/2004, 8:52 PM
I'm fine for audio. I plan to use a powered mic (Audio Technica AT4041) for interviews (not the on-cam mics).

I got into Vegas Video by being a Vegas Audio user first. Then they got rid of Vegas Audio, so I was forced to switch. But, the upside is, I can edit video pretty well now!!
busterkeaton wrote on 11/29/2004, 6:40 PM
Panasonic PVGS120 3CCD is $600 at Amazon, this is a 3CCD camera with a Leica lens which is excellent in this price range.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 11/29/2004, 9:31 PM
IMO, I would definately use the 3ccd over the Canon. IMO