Your link that you posted last time does not work - would like to see what you are referring to Zelkien69.

Regarding what people say about "XML" export design, you may be playing on semantics and really have missed the point.

What we are referring to is the disconnect between SCS marketing which heavily hypes the purpose of the XML feature - as an interchange project transfer method- AND, now note, the actual internal guidance of the development team- which has been about getting an internal loop exposure to Vegas project building. NOTE and you seem to understand, the feature cross NLE platforms integrity has a whole lot to do with timecode reference. AND TIMECODE has been a totally internal discussion with VegasPro for a very long time.

Ok, granted you may argue that marketing and development should sing the same song, and we can totally agree. But fair to say that is not what is actually going down or we would have TIMECODE cross NLE's including VegasPro many moons back.

I checked the link and it should be good. It goes to the Products>Vegas Pro>Vegas Pro 12 -more information >Video Editing option on the left of the page where the second "NEW! Project Exchange" headline reads
"Import and export a wide range of project files to and from Vegas Pro 12. The built-in software can convert between the native .veg file and AAF for Avid® ProTools® 10, XML for Apple® Final Cut Pro® 7, Final Cut Pro X, DaVinci Resolve 8, and .prproj for Adobe® Premiere® Pro CS6 and After Effects® CS6."
There is no question as to what they say/sold. You can also download the PDF file for further information about how great it works and what information of your edit will carry over.
I don't think the above statement by SCS, the PDF, and the sales pitch are semantics.
How's this. They are full of crap, lied, can't fix it, ignore the forums (mostly), and do have a tendency to let problems live version to version.
I replied to JasonATL because we literally just went through this in the past two weeks. Often people comment on how only the people with problems complain and how it's their system, their drivers, 3rd party software, and everything but Vegas. There are people on this forum that provide a wealth of information, assistance, insight (you included) and direction. The fact, to me, remains that like many other software companies, SCS could post specs of functioning systems at a basic level (Quicktime version & Nvidia driver at a minimum) that they approve. Numerous other software companies put compliance & guide lines for their software to function. Ironically Davinci Resolve has a spec sheet for build and approved hardware.
I've used Vegas since 7 and have a basic understanding of it's ins and outs. Cineform worked great for a while and then according to their rep who helped on the Vegas forum (Dan?) all the trouble was on Sony's side. I can't get Vegas 12 to render Cineform on two new builds. No idea why. Back around Vegas Pro 8 or 10 (I skipped 9) I even edited my registry for Cineform to work, and it did after that. A user should not have to edit the registry for ANY software sold as a complete solution. But many did.
Aside from going through the same this post reads like half the people responding don't have version 12 Pro. Not to be funny but click File>Export>and read the list. There is no room for semantics or misinterpretation. I'll continue to use Vegas because of the pros and I realize every tool is a trade off in someway. Use a DSLR and you'll get great low light and a unmanageable narrow depth of field. Use Resolve and be limited to a single monitor (scopes on second) which makes no sense to me. Use Neat Video and render times go through the roof. I guess I'm old fashioned and if you say something works, it should work.

Thanks Vid,
At least with this issue, because I don't have full Resolve (yet) I can't really do much unless someone gets me some example files to work with.

The main utility that I use most is for audio sync between the 7D and my audio recorder. It's 'assisted manual' synk process that an alternative to the automatic process of plural eyes (which takes forever and you need to assit it anyway, works only 85% of the time, isn't always accurate...).

I've never released software publicly. I know that there are some generic 'public use' licenses out there. i.e. "use at your own risk, don't bother me if it doesn't work, I'm just one guy without an offshore support desk"...ect..License ..just need to look into it.

Being that I'm on V2011, I was planning on doing a Vegas EDL <> Resolve XML converter. Iwasn't aware of the new features of V2012 until now. I guess if this doesn't get "resolved" I'll probably do that and wait for V2013.

Thanks,
Keith

Edit: looking at some of these other posts above, I'll look into these too.

Again, thanks for the replies.

To me the issue is now clear. Vegas is not setting the <frame> element correctly in the exported XML files using DNxHD (see my post above). Is this a timecode issue with DNxHD? Frankly, I don't care. Call it what you want, but don't dismiss it just because Vegas has not been handling timecodes correctly for a while. Other NLE's seem to work with DNxHD. I'd just like it fixed in Vegas Pro 12.

K-Decisive - thank you for making your scripts publicly available. Like Zelkien69, I simply would like this feature of Vegas 12 to work as it was intended (and as it works in other NLE's that have such features - which is most of Vegas' competitors, it seems).

SCS should understand that users, such as me, who must jump through hoops to get their software to work will eventually tire of doing so. I've been here for 8 years and have patiently worked around certain issues and turned off "features" that were never stable. I'm a little weary now. And, now that I'm changing my workflow to accommodate a new camera, I'm revisiting a lot of things. It has become very difficult to defend (to myself - never mind recommending to someone else that they use it -- I stopped doing that at v11) my continued use of Vegas Pro 12.

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, Vegas 12 is now essentially forcing me to use Premiere Pro in my workflow. My thinking is, now that I'm having to touch Premiere Pro, I might as well get more familiar with it. Indeed, perhaps I will no longer need/choose Vegas for anything. SCS not bothering to respond to my support ticket or comment further on this thread only demonstrates that they do not care or do not have the resources necessary address and fix issues, or both.

JasonATL, many thanks for your polite persistence, outstanding tolerance under extreme provocation and all around gentlemanly posts.

Yikes, this is totally outrageous! My Black Magic Cinema Camera (BMCC) is due mid next week, I have already downloaded and installed Resolve Lite (how cool it is), just read the workflow suggested by BMCC and attempted to export from Vegas using the XML export tool and bring it into Resolve Lite. Failure, of course.

So I did a quick search and found this thread.

Yikes!

One thing is clear – while I have been using Vegas since before day one if this export thing is not fixed, if Vegas Pro does not fit in the workflow, then its game over for me with Vegas (and SCS), and I shall be vigorously seeking my money back on the latest upgrade.

Another thing is equally clear – I shall deploy the amazing BMCC, enjoy the amazing features and capabilities of Resolve, and if I need to begin again with another NLE program so be it.

I might even switch to a MAC. Well, maybe not.

Common Sony, pull a finger, please

Thank you, John. I sincerely appreciate your kind comments.

Congratulations on getting the BMCC! I suspect that you will enjoy it. I've had mine for about a week and a half and have not really had a chance to shoot with it. I've spent what time I've had trying to learn how to use it (it is a bit of a different beast than a DSLR) and, as you have seen here, the workflow.

Jason,

I have been experimenting with Prores files, Vegas and XML to Resolve lite.

I can get the Resolve to read the XML. The problem I am having is recognizing the correct timecode of the QT file. According to Premiere and tbe Resolve, the timecode starts at 00:59:15;00. According toe Vegas it starts at 00:00:00;00.

Now interesting according to Quicktime, if I look at the track properties, the timecode of the file starts at 00:00:00;00 also. so I am trying to figure out where the 00:59:15;00 timecode is coming from. QT does not show it, Vegas does not show it.

Okay, so I change the properties of the QT file within Vegas to 00:59:15;00 thinking this will fix it, but no, Vegas still insists it is starting at 00:00:00;00. So the XML still says it can't find the right timecodes for the scene.

Other thing I found out. I can only make the XML import properly into Resolve if I export the media from Vegas when I create the XML. Even if I have just done it, if I do it again, I have to export the media again. Otherwise I get an object not found error on line xxx in the XML log.

If I could figure out how to change the Prores timecode, I think this would work, but having to copy the media each time ties up a lot of drive space. this is a short project and would be near impossible for an hour show or something like that.

I hope this helps somebody figure out what is going on.

Dave T2

DaveT2,

Nice find! Thanks!

I downloaded MediaInfo based on your recent post today.

As my post above indicates, the key item missing/incorrect in the MOV XML export from Vegas appears to be the <frame> element. Based on MediaInfo, I can confirm that this is the time code of first frame.

In my MXF export from Vegas, the <frame> element is set to 992232. In the MOV export, it is set to zero.

Looking at MediaInfo for the MOV file (the actual media file), the time code of first frame is: 11:29:03:00. At 24 fps, this works out to 992232.

Again, I think this just goes to verify that Vegas is not setting the time code of first frame in the exported XML file for MOV files (mine were encoded with DNxHD).

You can verify this by opening your XML for your prores file by right-clicking and choosing "open with->XML Editor" if XML editor is available on your system (it opens in Explorer for me). Then, just <CTRL>-F to find "frame" in the file. Notice that it is set to zero.

You can try to replace it with the time code of first frame (using the 24 fps calculation) using Wordpad to edit the XML file. Try importing this into Resolve.

With many media files, this is clearly a pain! Again, SCS needs to fix this. It should be a simple fix!

By the way, I have no trouble exporting XML from Vegas without copying media. Seems to work for me. You already have the media in the media pool in resolve, correct? Also, when you rendered the files from Resolve, you didn't have "render each file with a unique file name"? Finally, make sure that your import in Resolve you uncheck the "import media files into media pool" option. You've probably checked all of these settings already. I'm just trying to return the favor of helping! Again, thanks for the MediaInfo find and the confirmation that it is the time code of first frame that is the missing <frame> element.

I am still learning Resolve, and I did not have the footage in the media pool.

But I did export an EDL from vegas and linked it to the file in the media pool. I had to do some tricks though.

In VEGAS, I made an AVI proxy of the MOV file. Then in the media pool in Vegas I REPLACED the MOV file with the AVI file. Then in the properties of the AVI file I changed the timecode to start at 00:59:15;00 and gave it a reel name.

Then I exported an EDL using the Script that is provided with Vegas. I then used AVID EDL manage to wash the script, mainly just fixing the title of the EDL since Vegas does not do this correctly.

Then in Resolve I imported the MOV file in the media pool, then in the CONFORM screen I imported the EDL created by Avid EDL manager. This seemed to work except I had one extra scene at the end of my timeline that is not in Vegas, but the timecodes all lined up and seemed to work with dissolves. Apparently Vegas is not able to change the timecode in QT properties within Vegas.

Way too much work, so this definitely needs fixing but maybe this will help SCS if they are monitoring this thread.

Thanks for the extra info about using Resolve, those are good tips I was not aware of. I have been using Vegas since version 4, but just downloaded Resolve a while back to try to become familiar with it. It does utilize my GTX 470 GPU, so it renders quite speedily for my slow system.

Dave T2

Dave T2

Finally, make sure that your import in Resolve you uncheck the "import media files into media pool" option.


I cannot find this option. Can you point me to it.

Thanks
Dave T2

Re: uncheck the "import media files into media pool."

I'm using the full version of Resolve, so there is some chance that this is different in Resolve Lite.

Here's how it works in the full version of Resolve:
1. From the Conform "room": Select "import AAD,EDL, XML..." from the File menu
2. Navigate to your XML file and open
3. A window appears titled, "Load XML..." It is on this window where you find a check Box that says, "Automatically import source clips into media pool"

Here's screen capture of it: http://plus.google.com/photos/102645356447404039003/albums/5858656049048441505/5858656045605268450

Hunting around and I came across this Jesse Borkowski tutorial titled ‘DaVinci Resolve 9 to Adobe Premiere CS6 Round Trip for the Black Magic Cinema Camera’.
If there was something similar available for Vegas Pro 12 wouldn’t that be wonderful. But then again if Vegas Pro 12 is not currently capable of participating in such a round trip then creating such a tutorial is impossible, I guess.

John - I totally agree! In fact, I was set on making such a tutorial (or at least sharing my workflow) for Vegas Pro 12, with inspiration from that very one that you linked.

Alas, the XML that Vegas exports just doesn't work the way it is supposed to. When (hopefully not if) they fix it, the round trip should be identical.

I can't get far enough with my XML import to see that prompt. When I try to import, it gives me an invalid reference object error. The line number of the error changes each time I save a new XML.

Maybe it is an issue with the Lite version. I just downloaded the most recent one and still get the errror.

Oh well, I will wait.

Dave T2

DaveT2 - I just tried changing the time code manually in Vegas Pro 12 (by clicking properties of the media file). Zelkien69 had suggested that something is amiss with the timecode. It worked! Brilliant! Thank you, both.

So, further info seems that Vegas Pro is not READING the starting .mov file, and this seems to be critical for Resolve. VP12 writes the XML file fine if the time code is there, it seems. For now, this is possible to incorporate into a workflow. The starting time code is easily found in Resolve: in the metadata for the file, it shows as Starting T/C.

For a project with 100's of shots, this would not be feasible to change. However, I could see setting the time code manually for 10-20 shots. This seems at least as easy as the file renaming in K-Decisive's workflow, depending on the file renaming tools that you might have available. However, the benefit of this is that it doesn't require us to rename any files or relink them later.

DaveT2: this doesn't explain the problem that you are now having. You mentioned that you were using ProRes? Have you tried DNxHD?

Just to sum up: Here's a workflow that seems to work for me (by fixing the timecode manually).

BMCC Roundtrip Workflow using VP12 and Resolve:
1. In Resolve: Create a media pool of raw .dng files from the BMCC (this might work with any camera's files, but this example has been tested with .dng files).
2. In Resolve: Render the raw files to .mov (proxies) files to use in NLE, using the DNxHD codec (available as a free download from Avid).
3. In Vegas 12: Add the .mov files to a new timeline

3a. *** This is the part that is different for Vegas than for other NLE's, as Vegas appears to not read the timecode of the .mov files. This is the step that, without it, the whole workflow was failing.
Manually set the timecode for each media file in the Project Media (or, at least verify that it is not 00:00:00:00). Right-click each media file and choose "Properties". By default "Use timecode in file" is selected. Change this to "Use custom timecode:" and then enter the starting timecode for the file (see Capture 1 below). The starting timecode can be found in several ways. It appears in Resolve in the media metadata (see Capture 2 below). It also can be found using MediaInfo (time code of first frame).

3b. Edit timeline as desired.
4. In Vegas 12: Export an XML file: File->Export->Final Cut Pro7/DaVinci Resolve (*.xml). There is no need to export the media pool.
5. In Resolve: Import the XML file from the Conform room, choosing not to import the media. On the "Load XML..." screen, uncheck the box that reads, "Automatically import source clips into media pool" (see Capture 3 below) This forces Resolve to use the same media pool as in Step 1). Resolve should automatically link with media pool files rather than the .mov proxies.
6. In Resolve: Color grade.
7. In Resolve: Render final .mov files to be used in final render, replacing the .mov files that were created in Step 2. Alternatively, you can render the imported timeline as separate clips. In this case, you need to export an XML file to be read into Vegas Pro 12. If you made "local" color grades in step 6, then it is necessary to render clips as separate files and export the XML from Resolve (to be imported in Vegas 12 -- note that you'll lose the timecodes again!). If you applied the same color grade to a media file (i.e., you graded the media, not the separate timeline clips), then you can just replace the original proxies.
8. In Vegas 12: Render final output (perhaps after adding some effects, titles, etc.)

Capture 1: http://plus.google.com/photos/102645356447404039003/albums/5858656049048441505/5858898050483577122
Capture 2: http://plus.google.com/photos/102645356447404039003/albums/5858656049048441505/5858898050642956706
Capture 3: http://plus.google.com/photos/102645356447404039003/albums/5858656049048441505/5858656045605268450

Jason, I am wondering a bit more about the timecode flavor you detect in the .mov file render. While I use mediainfo regularly, I don't seem to have the version that can read start timecode.

1) Please specify the version of MediaInfo by version number____

2) Please specify the version of AVID DNXHD codec you are using on your PC ____

3) MediaInfo possesses a lot of complex options, perhaps, what timecode display formatting?? Does it matter if you literally copy the timecode from the MediaInfo read - OR do you have to translate it into a different format to type into the custom box of the VegasPro file properties option ? If so how do you readily translate the formatting?

Thanks,
Doug

Doug,

Nothing seems too complex about it. By the way, the time code on the files that I am using are as simple as the clock time (in 24-hour HH:MM:SS:00 format) that the shot was originally recorded on the camera. This time code is being assigned, I believe, by Resolve when it renders these DNxHD files. In setting the time code, it appears to be relying on the original source file's metadata that has the time code. With different sources, I presume that the time code could be different.

Latest versions (as far as I know) of both DNxHD (2.3.7) and MediaInfo (0.7.62). The time code is reported in the "Other" information at the bottom of the info screen as time code of first frame. I didn't copy and paste into Vegas Pro media properties, but I suppose it is possible. Rather, I typed it exactly as it was in MediaInfo (see Capture below). Does not seem very complex to me.

Avid DNxHD Download: http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/download/en423319
MediaInfo Download: http://mediainfo.sourceforge.net/en/Download/Windows

MediaInfo Information Capture: https://plus.google.com/photos/102645356447404039003/albums/5858656049048441505/5858929727916191218

Also, to see it in MediaInfo, you might try selecting the Tree view. I honestly don't know what view I was using to see the capture in my last post. Some views don't show this info.

Another update (I can't seem to let this go, can I?):

There is a timecode setting in the Resolve Project Preferences under Conform Options. The default appears to be "Use Timecode: Embedded in the source clip". The other option is "Use Timecode: From the source clip frame count." So, I figured I'd give that a shot.

What that appears to do is to set the DNxHD file's starting time code to zero. Since this is what Vegas was using by default, I thought this might be a solution. My thinking was, if I can't get Vegas Pro 12 to export something that Resolve likes, perhaps I can fool Resolve into liking what Vegas Pro 12 creates.

Alas, when importing the VP12-created XML file, the timeline would import, but the clips were not matched to the correct original source files. So, for this purpose, it failed. It appears that the timecode is critical in Resolve matching to the original source files.

I'm now suddenly curious as to what would happen if there were two files with the exact same timecode (e.g., they were shot on different days, but at the exact same time). I expect that the length of the clip might also be used (although, it clearly wasn't in the example I just tried),

Jason, as you may already know, to resolve difference in days of timecode or even different cameras on same day - TimeCode must have a reel name, or whatever the system has to call it. I recall that SCS has referred to this necessity several times. AND it is a necessity for timecode to translate in a complex project.

Where can you insert Reel name? Resolve?, certainly VegasPro? wonder about this roundtripping piece?

And before I forget - thanks so much for responding to my request for specifics - sometimes this is most important data!

Jason,

In this case I have only been using Prores files. The timecode shown within QT is not the timecode of the file. Apparenlty this is in Metadata that you have to have special software to read. There is software online being sold to read and change the metadata in QT files, but I don't want to spend any money on this. I do think that Prores and other QT files are not equal in how timecode and other metadata is stored. In most QT files, you can view the track properties and it shows the timecode. In my Prores file, this timecode track iis there, but starts at 0. But Mediainfo and other programs say it starts at 59:15;00 and Vegas says 0 so Vegas ii probably reading the same TC track as QT. If I try to change it within Vegas, it makes no difference in how Vegas intreprets it, but on an AVI it does. I might create a DNXHd file and see if Vegas treats it differently.



But my problem seems to be related to objects within the XML. It gives me a line error, but I don't have any way to tell which line they are referring too, since I don't want to count down 900 lines or so. If I save the media with the XML, this error does not show.

I am glad you are being persisitent, maybe SCS will take note of your interest and move it up a few notches of priority.

Dave T2

Jason,
To distinguish between identical timecodes, Resolve or other programs will use the filename or reel number.

Dave T2