I am no expert on control surfaces rednroll so bear with me.

The UR-80 has presets for common audio apps. I am using the generic map and learning the codes in Vegas.

Would it make sense if the UR-80 was sending a control message from this button rather than a bank change mesaage

I can change controller settings and the manual differntiates between control change and bank change amongst others.

The message learnt in Vegas is 0x 62 non Registered Param LSB which is differnt to the other MIDI messages so far

Does this mean Veags is expecting a bank change message but receiving a control change message?

Paul

Correction the track group button send one of four midi messages which are intedned to switch to four groups of tracks therefore giving you 32 in total.

From the options in the Vegas config option I can't see how this can be mapped.

Paul

Vegas doesn't work this way. Sounds like a very Stienberg way of doing things. There is no direct way to access a specific bank of channels from the Generic Driver.

A surface exposes X channels at a time in Vegas. IN the case of the UR 80 it can expose 8 at one time. The Generic Surface control driver exposes commands to increment or decrement channels 1 at at time or in groups of X channels, depending on how many channels you configured.

So, what you need to do is assign a button on the UR-80 to inc by one or by bank and one button to dec 1 one or bank. For example, you can set the Cursor Right Key on the UR-80 to bank up by 8 channels and assign the Cursor Left key to bank down by 8 channels.

Peter

OK got it going with other buttons, Thanks

Don't know if this is likely to be the case with other units if they are geared to other apps like Steinberg/Sonar etc

Not worth it for one unit I know but if this is common a Bank 1/2/3/4 option in the generic driver would be good to tie the control surface display to Vegas

Paul

A little follow up question, since I haven't been able to try this out, because my 03D doesn't have any additional buttons to assign as a bank up/down change message.

"The Generic Surface control driver exposes commands to increment or decrement channels 1 at at time or in groups of X channels"

So let's say as in this example that H/W control faders are assigned to S/W faders 1-8 and I want to change this to the next group of X=8 faders. So I assign 2 hardware buttons for the inc/dec commands. So let's say I then hit the "inc" button, and now the control surface should control faders 9-16. Now, what I'm wondering is Vegas expecting to receive different midi cc messages from the faders, or the same midi cc messages that where assigned to S/W faders 1-8? For my use I'm hoping it's expecting to see the same midi cc messages that where assigned to S/W faders 1-8 and now get rerouted to S/W faders 9-16 through the "inc" button command.

On my 03D there's 16 faders that I can assign to Vegas faders. So I would like my X=16. I have 4 buttons available that send out MMC messages. I would like to use 2 or them for the inc/dec buttons, and 1 for the automation global toggle button. It would be nice if Vegas could learn the MMC messages, but until then I'm thinking about contacting NAT and have him make a utility that converts my MMC messages to midi CC messages. I just want to make sure of the functionality in Vegas first.

Exactly how we expect it to work.

The "view" of the control's faders is just that. The driver maps the same fader commands to the view of the channels. So if Fader 1 sends out MIDI CC 0, it will control the current banks channel 1, whether it is track 1 or track 16.

The Generic Driver will be reviewed based upon the comments and complaints I am getting here. I have no problems with exposing more and complete integration.

As usual, no promises as to when.

Peter

RednRoll, that exactly what I am now doing now and it seems to work fine.

No complaints here Peter, just comments

I think the Edirol is slightly odd in its logic. The rotary and buttons when swtiched send diferent midi codes, its just the faders theat send the same with a unique code for the track group setting. To me I owuld have expected the logic to be consistent or perhaps there is a techncial reason as to why.

Thanks for listening, most ISV's seem to listen seldom and provide feedback and guidence even less

Not the case here

Paul

I was just checking out the edirol and it looks like a pretty nifty controler. How much do these cost? For your problem, which keys did you assign for the bank inc/dec commands in Vegas? Could it be possible to assign 2 different keys that didn't change the actual bank on the edirol so the rotarty and buttons remain the same messages? Maybe the cursor up/down buttons, or maybe the marker Prev/Next buttons? A couple further questions on the edirol. Can you have the transport buttons send out midi cc messages or are they just MMC? Also that "TIME" wheel, does it send out midi cc messages? That looks like it would be nice to use as a shuttle control, to ff/rw or scrub audio. The AMS Neve Audiofiles had a similar wheel like that and it was very nice to quickly navigate on the timeline. One other thing, the knobs that are located along the top labeled track/control, can you use these as pan controls in Vegas? Sorry I know you said you're no controler expert, but I've been seeing some limitations in using my 03D as a controler. I was highly considering the JL Cooper CS-10, but it doesn't look like it has rotary knobs for each fader that I could assign as Pan controls and the Edirol UR-80 looks like it might, so in finding out this could make my decision really easy.

I am attempting to get a UR-80 here so we can have a look at how this thing works.

Peter

I picked up the contoller at Dawsons in the UK for £300. which often translates to US $300

The bank inc/dec settings I think I am going for are to assign the two buttons to the left of the jog wheel to switch between audio/video tracks and then use the shift key to use the same buttons for inc/dec

You can't use the the edirol to shift the faders and rotary controls at the same time which is the odd bit. The assign button switches the rotary controls so that they send different midi messages , the faders send the same message regardless of the track group setting switch.

The transport buttons send control change messages so i I have the them mapped to the play/pause/stop/transport.FFWD which works great

The time wheel send cc messages (I am not quite sure what a MMC message is?) so that is mapped to Trackview.CursorTo.Leftbyframe/rightbyframe

The rotarys at the top are set as pan controls, front/rear etc depending on the setting of the assign button to the right

The other thing I like with it is the select switchs are mapped to mute/solo/auto etc and they follow the bank switch when I shift to 1-8 or 9-16 etc

The generic controller is V5 is so flexible you can get the control surface to pretty much do what you like :-)

Paul

Thanks Paul, you pretty much helped me make my decision to go with the edirol over the JL Cooper.

A new edirol UR-80 looks to be going for just under $400 here in the U.S. A new JL Cooper CS-10/2 is priced at $760, and I've seen these used on ebay going for about $300. The simple fact that the CS-10 has 8 faders and only 6 soft knobs, seems like a dumb design to me, where having 8 softknobs for each fader seems to make a lot more sense. Seeing that there's quite a few used CS-10's being sold on ebay as to no used UR-80's tells me alot also.

I think the UR-80 has just been released so you probably will not see them on ebay

The CS-10 looks good, you have an O3D which looks pretty awesome

Can't you get it to work with the generic driver?

Paul

"Can't you get it to work with the generic driver?"

Yes, it does work with the generic driver, although there is some issues currently with the generic driver and the Yamaha boards that Peter is looking into.

On top of that there's definately some limitations on the 03D, which I found after installing midi-OX, which allows me to monitor the midi messages being sent from the 03D.

There's 2 midi remote options that I found that I can use with Vegas. One is a Protools preset, and the other is a General midi preset and here's the problems.

Protools Setup:
The 03D has 16 channel faders, in the Protools setup it will only send midi cc messages from channels 1-8 and nothing from 9-16. Also, for some reason there is send and pan controls for these 8 faders but, I can't adjust these and therefore don't send out any cc messages. The mute buttons do send out midi cc messages and Vegas can use these. So, basically I don't have any pan controls with this setup and I lose 8 of the available faders. The other problem is that there are no buttons on the 03D that send out midi cc messages that I can use for the inc/dec bank operation. So I'm stuck with only 8 faders that I can control. There's also an onscreen software transport that is available in this mode that works with Vegas, but to use it, I've got to either cursor over to the buttons and hit enter, or use a mouse connected to the 03D and click the buttons. The record button doesn't send any midi cc messages out, unless it's preceeded by a stop button push. So if I wanted to do a punch-in record, by hitting play followed by record, then this won't work. So basically it's actually a lot easier to just use keyboard shortcuts or using my mouse in Vegas for transport functions.

General midi setup:
For this one all 16 faders send out midi cc messages, and there are 16 pan controls that also send out midi cc messages, along with 2 send controls per fader, which work in Vegas. But now the mute buttons don't send any messages out, so I lose all my mute controls and there's no transport functions. I find this probably the best preset to use with Vegas, but again I don't have any buttons to use for inc/dec so I can't assign those 16 faders to tracks 17-32, so I'm stuck with 16 controlable faders.

The 03D does have 4 user assignable preset buttons. The problem is that I can't assign them to send midi cc messages. I can assign them to send MMC messages (Midi Machine Control). MMC is a standard midi protocal for transport buttons, the problem there is Vegas does not support MMC messages, so these become useless for me to use with Vegas at this time. Where if Vegas supported MMC messages, this would solve a couple of my problems in that I could use them for the inc/dec buttons and the global toggle between the trim faders and the automated faders. So for right now I have no way of controling the automated faders in Vegas, which is the primary need to have a control surface so you can use the realtime automation recording with physical H/W faders.

So, while yes it is somewhat functional, it's less than desirable in how I want to work compared to the UR-80.

Shame about the O3D and how it works with Vegas, it looks pretty good

The UR-80 has its limitations as well.

I realised what has been happening with the generic driver and the response to the faders.

If I have the volume set at -9db on a track and then go to use that fader, the vegas track fader does not respond until I have moved the UR-80 fader down to -9db then it kicks in

Is this because the faders are not motorised, would they move to the track settings on opening a project if they were?

How about if the faders have been switched to Video mode would they automatically go to 100% if all my video tracks were 100% opacity?

The same goes for the pan controls they do not kick in until I have crossed the pan threshold for that track

Am I expecting too much?

Paul

>>Is this because the faders are not motorised, would they move to the track settings on opening a project if they were?
<<
Exactly.

>>How about if the faders have been switched to Video mode would they automatically go to 100% if all my video tracks were 100% opacity?
<
Yes. The same behavior for devices like the Mackie that provide a "flip" switch that moves the pot control to the main fader for more accurate control of pan or send values.





This is how it has to work for generic CC processing. If we didnot first match the hardware value to the current value in software, the software value would jump to match the current value sent out by the hardware.

This is common refered to as NULL passthrough matching. Some hardware devices - the JLCooper CS-10 for example - have LEDs that can be placed under Software control that indicate which direction a fader or knob must be turned in order for the hardware to match the current software.

There are controls - like the VPots on the Mackie units - that are 'relative' or incemental controls. They don't give a specific value that is translated to a specific 'setting" in the host, but rather tell the host to inc/dec the current value. You can't do this with a hardware device that has a fixed range, as most CC controllers do. That is they send out a fixed range of values - 0 -127 for single resolution CC msgs.

However, there does seem to be a problem with the current generic driver that is causing the null passthrough detection to kick in even after the external control knob/fader is matched. We are looking into this problem and it will be resolved in an update.

Peter