I hope you had a chance to read about V9 improvements?

Get a Core i7 computer.

For simple edits (crossfades, a few title overlays, 2-3 video tracks, 2-3 audio tracks) I render AVCHD in real time or better and preview full screen on a 21" widescreen monitor. For straight video and the preview set to Good/Auto I get a 29.970 frame rate. This drops to 15 or so for title overlays and crossfades. There is no question that AVCHD takes some processing power. and I'm sure that there are improvements that Sony can make to Vegas to improve stability and rendering performance. But right now, with 8.1, I'm a happy camper with just a basic low end (not overclocked) Core i7 with 6 GB of memory running Vista Pro 64.

As to Version 9 it's wait and see for me but I'm very, very likely to buy it in the next couple of weeks. As a now reformed Premier Pro user Vegas has been very good to me since version 4 and I have never been disappointed with any of their subsequent releases and updates. Vegas just gets better and better. There is no reason to believe that Version 9 will break with that tradition.

Has aybody seen the release notes for V9 yet?

I'm very curious to read the "fixed problems" list log in 9. In fact, that information is actually more important to me than the "what's new" marketing materials.

Anybody know if development has stopped on V8? Is it too late to hope for an "8D" patch before 9 ships?

CT

"Get a Core i7 computer. "

If you want to work with native avchd in any serious fashion (with any nle) then this is a must.

I have a Core i7 and in general it works well with AVCHD level 4 (aka Main-Profile AVCHD). However, Vegas 8 and 8.1 do not handle AVCHD level 4.1 (aka High-Profile AVCHD) properly. I am hoping that Vegas 9 has added support for level 4.1, but I don't see any mention of that in the description.

Jerry

I must admit... that will be interesting to see. I don't render out my avchd as avchd (HD mpeg2 instead) because Vegas works with main profile only.

Sony has on the other hand in a sense has taken a stance on this issue. They don't regard avchd as anymore than a "consumer" medium. Even their new generation consumer level cams are still running at main profile levels.

Still it would be nice to render at a higher bitrate. I have the sr11 which operates at 16Mb/s and vegas renders at 16.... but then the 16 is an average coming out of the sr11 not a max... so if you render at 16... you're chopping a bit of quality.

We'll find out either way on may 11

We'll find out either way on may 11

...because we can't expect SCS to be upfront about AVCHD or even BWF in their pre-release blurb beforehand.

Which tends to make me think it ain't happening otherwise they'd be trumpeting the news.
Either that or they have a damn lousy PR department.... wait do I remember a in house Sony video??? lol

Sony has on the other hand in a sense has taken a stance on this issue. They don't regard avchd as anymore than a "consumer" medium

As to whether AVCHD is just consumer or has a place professional production... why would Sony want to support AVCHD as a professional/prosumer format?

They don't have it in their pro hardware range and if they did it would immediately undermine their sales of XDCAM hardware like the EX1. Which is without argument better than the AVCHD prosumer cameras from their competition. But it is significantly more expensive than cameras like the HMC-150 which does have a serious role to play in corporate/event video market and as an alternative to HDV tape based aquisition.

That is smart marketing of its product range by Sony but not so good for Vegas users who want to use other manufacturers higher bit rate AVCHD. Seems SCS software users are hung out to dry on the marketing strategies of Sony Professional Video.

Vegas 8's problems with AVCHD, and yes I own a high bit rate AVCHD camera, are what is keeping me away from editing in Vegas, my editing platform of preference since Vegas 4 was released. So some clear indication on Vegas 9 and AVCHD is prerequisite to my decision to buy or not to buy.

I guess I'll have to wait till the actual users report on this forum on it's ability to handle AVCHD.

Newhope

Edited to reduce the confusion ;-}

You can take an AVCHD 4.1 profile file and drop it into "TSmuxR" and change the profile flag to read "4"

This does not recompress the file, it keeps the original encoding but allows it to play/edit in Vegas.

I believe Vegas reads the profile flag and blocks it not because it can't work with it,..but because Sony doesnt "want" you working with it. (4.1 files are typically from Blu Rays and not consumer generated sources)

Vegas can work with these files without a problem.

http://smlabs.net/tsmuxer_en.html

CT

newhope,

When you say the EX1 is better than AVCHD that really is a little misleading. You are comparing a camera to a video compression standard. The EX1 is a fantastic camera. Great glass, three nice big HD sensors, great processing, features, etc.. a pro camera. And it uses MPEG-2 compression at 35Mbps. A greater than HDV bitrate with a high quality realtime compression engine built into the camera.

AVCHD is simply a compression format, not a camera. If you could compress AVCHD at 35Mbps using high quality the resulting streaming would be of higher quality than AVCHD.

There is nothing "consumer" about AVCHD any more than there is with HDV. They are both 4:2:0. AVCHD is simply an extension of MPEG-2. It uses additional math to increase compression efficiency at the expense of processing cycles. It was (is) the natural evolution of MPEG-2.

The drawbacks are of course increased processing power required to encode, decode, and therefore edit. But given the best encoding available it has been demonstrated that AVCHD is twice as efficient as MPEG-2 for encoding. That means a 8Mbps MPEG-2 stream can be compressed to 4Mbps with no loss of visual quality. I have compressed 5-6Mbps SD MPEG-2 streams down to 2Mbps (less than half) with almost no decrease in quality so I believe the claim of it being twice as efficient.

And this efficiency is not achieved by using tricks like visual processing or some other nonsense. AVCHD exploits greater redundancy in the source video to encode it more efficiently.

I was not a proponent of AVCHD in the beginning because I thought MPEG-2 was good enough and more editable. I have since changed my mind. As the in-camera processing power of cameras increases so shall the encoding quality of AVCHD cameras. The first cameras were a joke in terms of video quality. Today Sony, Canon, and Panasonic to name a few are marketing AVCHD cameras with impressive AVCHD quality. And they are getting better with each camera design evolution. There seems to be headroom left in AVCHD to yet be exploited by camera manufacturers.

And yes there is no doubt that AVCHD is much more demanding for the NLE than MPEG-2. But it IS editable right now with fast processors. And as we know faster processors are arriving all of the time. We shall soon be seeing 6 core (12 including HT) i7 chips.

So the AVCHD cameras are here for consumers and prosumers, the computer hardware is nearly here, but the software is lagging a bit. Now Sony has done a great job making Vegas AVCHD capable indeed but many of us are asking for an evolution of AVCHD performance in Vegas.

I for one and not asking for miracles. As I have stated in other posts I am asking for two things.

1. No issues with Quad core rendering of AVCHD.
2. 100% usage of ALL cores when previewing.

If those two conditions can be satisfied then Vegas is no longer the bottleneck for AVCHD editing.

Now why take the time to post this?

I know there are other users that feel as I do on these boards and I thought I would speak for others that may feel as I do.

And second, how is Sony to know what features it's customers feel are important if we don't make our desires known?

I am not going to cry or whine if V9 doesn't include significant AVCHD improvements. I'm not going to stop using Vegas, it's a fantastic program and I'm happy it exists everytime I start the program. I'm not going to threaten to never buy it again. I buy almost every release. I will be a little disappointed but I will also understand that the Sony engineers know a lot more about software development than I do. I have had my say and know that at least I voiced my opinion in (hopefully) a civil manner.

"...because we can't expect SCS to be upfront about AVCHD or even BWF in their pre-release blurb beforehand."

Yes, yes. Of course. They're evil people and their prime directive in life is to rip off as many humans and destroy as many lives as they can.

Geez... you people have gone beyond sounding silly. You now sound just plain stupid.

"Geez... you people have gone beyond sounding silly. You now sound just plain stupid. " ;-) Blink, the last week or two you've been batting .500 ;-) I think I owe you a couple of Starbucks coffees or it is Tim Horton's? ;-) See, the PS3 did not fried your brain cells with sub sonic noises...... just jazzing you........ I like your bit flag work, keep checking those features!

Well, interesting that there are complaints about V9 before anyone has tried it.

it is, isn't it?

But the demo comes out before the promotion ends. Just try the demo & see if it works with the camera you got. Always try the demo first if you can, and since Sony always does the promos even after the software comes out, no reason not to.

They're evil people

No blink that's not what I said BUT their marketing info in some areas is at best vague and at it's worst misleading as to whether anything has been done to rectify problems we have asked be changed or functions we have asked to be added.

Here... let me quote John Cline... He actually does it better but I'll try and mimic him as best I can:

BLAH BLAH BLAH

BLAH BLAH BLAH

blink ... you shouldn't be so self deprecating ... your posts are mildly better than that..lol

AVCHD is simply a compression format, not a camera

Hulk, I was being a little 'shorthanded' in my terminology comparing XDCAM and AVCHD formats.

I clearly understand that AVCHD is a compression format.

I own a HMC-152EN (PAL HMC-150 version) and it's a great camera which uses AVCHD. The HMC-172 is an almost identical camera using P2 AVCIntra and therefore higher data rate and a different compression. Both great cameras but when you compare them to the EX1 my personal assessment is that the Sony camera out performs them in most areas except for it's ergonomics for hand holding. As you said a fantastic camera. Great glass, three nice big HD sensors, great processing, features, etc.. a pro camera My decision to go with the 152EN was based on pricing and the type of work for which I'm using it. I still love the results I get with it though, particularly since my direct comparison is my old PD-150 so the step up for me is quite a jump in quality and functionality of the camera itself.

I was making the comparison to proffer a reason why Sony, who haven't offered a prosumer AVCHD based camera to date, wouldn't be interested in introducing it to their current prosumer/professional camera line up. Then why SCS haven't subsequently supported the higher data rate AVCHD formats that are available on other branded cameras.

So the AVCHD cameras are here for consumers and prosumers, the computer hardware is nearly here, but the software is lagging a bit

I agree and it is is exactly the point of this thread... though others seem not to want to hear that message.

Hopefully (no pun intended) SCS will, but I guess most of us will need to 'experience' Vegas 9 before we know if they have.

New Hope Media

I knew it !!!
Blink and John Cline are related!
Now it all makes sense................... lol

newhope,

Sorry I should have read your post a little closer. You are right we are in agreement.

I am an optimist when it comes to technology. Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes it gets me into trouble. I like AVCHD because I feel as though the editing is "right on the cusp" of being "there." Just a little more from Vegas, just a little more from the hardware...

Sometimes it's better to just go with the easier editing solution and sit out until the software and hardware is fully developed.

- Mark

Blink is from the colder, less-tan side of the family, which we here in the Desert Southwest don't talk about much, eh.

Cliff, that is interesting. I'll give TSmuxR a try but I have been under the impression that it was the bit rate of AVCHD 4.1 that was causing problems for Vegas. I say this because I CAN edit it in Vegas 8.0c or 8.1, it just sometimes crashes Vegas at clip boundaries, and I get jittering with 720p60 footage. I have not experienced Vegas "blocking" AVCHD 4.1.

Jerry

You can take an AVCHD 4.1 profile file and drop it into "TSmuxR" and change the profile flag to read "4"