Vegas 10a - Problems with Cineform.

chiltern wrote on 10/14/2010, 1:18 AM
I have encountered the following problems - so far - using Vegas Pro 10a with various existing (Vegas 9) projects containing Cineform clips..
One clip in the project suddenly became 'black' when clicked on. This happened several times, but only with one clip on one project.. The clip rendered as black as well, but the audio was fine.
Rendering hang, but program continues... Two different 50+min projects hung when at the end of rendering the first clip. The time counter kept increasing the 'time to complete' - eventually ending up at a value of more than 24 hours, before the render was cancelled.
Rendering and program hang after end of first clip, with preview window showing fade to black instead of the first (crossfade) transition. The job was very difficult to cancel, and repeatedly displayed the 'a background operation is currently in progress' message. Eventually the job was killed using the task manager.
Crash when 'render as' window displayed. Report with details sent to Sony..
As has been mentioned elsewhere, it would appear that Cineform support in Vegas 10a is not complete yet..

Robert Gadsdon


Charming Stoat wrote on 10/14/2010, 6:37 AM

I was having some problems with Cineform Neoscene yesterday when I first installed 10a but found the solution in upgrading to ver.5 of Neoscene

This thread might be helpful:
willlisub wrote on 10/14/2010, 6:40 AM
I am not able to use the Codec for output from within Vegas 10. NeoScene runs as a stand alone and Vegas V9 can still see / use the Cineform codec for rendering.

In Vegas V10, the cineform codec can be selected but when starting the renderer error message about not finding the codec.

I deactivated, uninstalled, rebooted, and reinstall, and activated Neoscene, but still get the results.

I'm using the trial V10. I went back to V9 for current project as V10 crashed 2x on me, one time rebooting the computer as I was scrubbing through abunch of native 5D and Gh1 files. Maybe 30-40 on the time line.

The other time it hung when playing. Will try again later.....

I purchased a license but haven't installed it yet..... Just don't have time for any more testing right now.
kkolbo wrote on 10/14/2010, 7:06 AM
Cineform has confirmed it in other threads over the past two days. If you are using neoscene, you must use version 5.1 or above to work with VP10.. NeoHD does not have this issue although I am using the most current version.
MattWright wrote on 10/14/2010, 9:55 AM
I'm using the latest version of NeoScene 5.1.3 and in Vegas 10a 64bit, i'm getting the same error message whilst trying to render "No Compatible Codec Found.." Any ideas anyone.


ECB wrote on 10/14/2010, 10:20 AM

You have to update to Beta v5.2 to get the fix.

Eugenia wrote on 10/14/2010, 6:22 PM
chiltern, I know well this bug. It has bit me on Pro 9 too, not just Pro 10.

So, there are two things you must do:
1. Install the LATEST version of NeoSCENE or whichever Cineform package you're using. It really needs the latest one, because Pro 10 is using the Cineform SDK to decode files now, and so it needs a very recent version.

2. You must uninstall the Matrox AVI mpeg2 intermediate codec -- if you have this installed. This is what created the incompatibility with the Cineform red/black frames and the subsequent crashing for me!! I'm aware that this codec should not have been even loaded in memory, since my projects were Cineform-only, and yet, it was causing trouble! Cudos to the Sony engineer who actually noticed for me the matrox avi DLL crashing in the debug information I sent him.

If you don't have the Matrox mpeg2 AVI codec installed, then it might be another AVI codec interfering. Clean up your PC from AVI codecs you don't need.

After I removed the Matrox AVI codec from the PC, I haven't had a single red/black frame or crash with Cineform projects. However, I consider the bug for the interference to be Vegas'. Premiere CS4/5, Vegas Pro 7/8, Platinum 7/8/9 do NOT have the interference problem, it's only Pro 9/10 and Platinum 10 that do. Something changed in the recent codebase of Vegas that made it an easy target somehow.

Anyways, check your third party AVI codecs!!!
David Newman wrote on 10/16/2010, 8:23 AM
Thank you Eugenia. NeoScene v5.2 is now officially out, this is the version required for full Vegas 10a support (NeoHD required only 5.1.)

David Newman
CTO, CineForm
chiltern wrote on 10/16/2010, 9:10 AM
@Eugenia, thank you for the suggestions. I am running the latest (5.2) version of NeoHD, and have no Matrox avi codecs etc. Vegas Pro 9e was (finally!) working fine for me with Cineform projects, so the changes in 10a would seem to be the problem.
I did test an old non-Cineform project with 10a (54 min. long, with 100+ clips in MPEG2 HDV format) and the project rendered relatively quickly, and with no problems.
In another test, I rendered an existing 10 min Cineform project (to Sony AVC MP4 720p for YouTube) with 10a, and that was successful.
Hopefully 10b will be released soon.

Robert Gadsdon.
DGates wrote on 10/16/2010, 4:53 PM
Of course, with V10's MUCH improved AVCHD handling, who still needs NeoScene?
chiltern wrote on 10/18/2010, 5:16 AM
And... Preview to a Blackmagic Intensity card using 10a doesn't work with Cineform projects (no image, on an HDMI-connected monitor), but does work OK with M2T projects, and works fine using 9e.. The card appears to be detected, and correctly configured, in 10a, and I am using the latest version of the Intensity drivers....

Robert Gadsdon.
VanLazarus wrote on 10/18/2010, 7:02 PM
Of course, upgrading from my NeoScene 4.x to NeoScene 5.x costs money. I guess one can't expect purchased software to work for long before one MUST pay for an upgrade. Still.... it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth....
Jayster wrote on 10/27/2010, 2:08 PM
Seems to me that Cineform was a great tool when Vegas 5 was released. That was when Vegas started working with HDV but couldn't handle it natively with any decent frame rates. Now Vegas is so good with HDV that there isn't any reason not to edit it directly (unless you're editing the nth generation of the video). I haven't worked with AVCHD but I guess it's the same story.

So good question, other than maintaining the ability to edit existing Cineform sources, why indeed would a Vegas editor still need Cineform? Some high-end feature that most of us will never use?
Al Min wrote on 10/28/2010, 11:27 AM
I'd like to know the answer to this also. With Vegas 10a, do we still need to use NeoScene?
Al Min wrote on 10/29/2010, 1:57 PM
Any answer?
BigD4077 wrote on 10/29/2010, 2:42 PM
I have a lot (4tb) of Intellectual property stored in the Cineform Intermediate format hence I'm a wee bit more at stake then the average user. Here's what I posted on creative-cow based on some testing I performed today. Based on my fairly old dual-core 3.2 ghz with 2MB of ram the answer of wether to continue using cineform or not is a resounding YES....

I'm totally blown away, in a positive direction, with the performance of the Cineform DI versus Sony YUV. File size footprint is 23% of tSony YUV with nearly equal rendering times. Playback performance is noticeably better as well with SONY YUV Stuttering at times with Cineform smooth as silk on preview auto. It's really a pity Sony quit including this codec in their release. Looks like an obvious cost savings on the license. Then again maybe they want you to use a cheaper/free license with motion-jpeg. This was the only other Codec I could render to at 1920X1080 24p. It was nearly a third the size of Cineform and took about 10% less time to render.

Anyone have any insights or experiences to share using MJPEG as a DI? Comparisons to Cineform appreciated.

Using Cineform to transcode mts to avi was a big benefit in the workflow with preview auto showing some stuttering wotking with *.mts with Cineform smooth as silk.

Although Sony still re-renders unedited cineform I'm much less concerned when I see the file size shrink by a factor of 8x. Clearly there's some re-rendering/packaging going on here!

Last but least by a long-shot is Vegas-10 supports rendering full HD whereas 8.x only supported 1440x1080 with a pizel aspect ration of 1.33.

I'm a happier shelling out $130.00 to enable my 4tbs of archive to be used in Vegas 10


FYI... Response from Cineform

Sony actually stopped including the codec a couple versions ago. The problem you're having with version 10 not seeing the codec does require Neo Scene version 5.2.

so to answer your questions in order:

should codec be missing? yes, it doesn't install in Vegas 10 and Vegas 10 requires version 5.2 of Neo Scene (prior versions are incompatible).

Why no discount for prior codec users? Sony doesn't include the codec any more and hasn't for a couple of versions. We don't offer a discount on our already low priced Neo Scene product because you never actually owned a previous CineForm product. The codec was licensed through Sony and as I mentioned, they don't include it with Vegas any more... and haven't for a while.

For your question of the intermediates needing to be recompressed, this is most likely because they were not encoded using I-frames. When you convert your mts files into CineForm files, you need to select the I-frames option in the Neo Scene prefs window.

~Just because you can doesn't mean you should~
Serena wrote on 10/29/2010, 2:44 PM
You can work without using Cineform DIs. Whether you wish to use CF depends on how you value its technical advantages in relation to your work, and those are detailed on the Cineform web site.
LReavis wrote on 10/29/2010, 6:04 PM
MJPEG is not as good, according to my comparison, and does not play back as smoothly (probably would be OK now on my new i7 940).

I don't recommend it, but you can get MJPEG (PicVideo, but only 32- bit version) for $40:

I just plunked down $99 for the latest Cineform last night so that I can use with with v10
BigD4077 wrote on 10/29/2010, 7:30 PM
>> I just plunked down $99 for the latest Cineform last night so that I can use with with v10

Did you use Video Guys and was it downloadable?

LReavis wrote on 10/29/2010, 7:57 PM
yes, Videoguys - all I got was a serial number; activation is done after downloading from the Cineform NeoScene webpage (which I did last week) and going through Cineform's activation process (I haven't done that yet - I'm trusting it'll work)
BigD4077 wrote on 10/29/2010, 9:03 PM
Much appreciated, Video Guys it is!
A-Scott wrote on 10/29/2010, 11:44 PM
For what it's worth, anyone who is upgrading from Neoscene V1.x can still get a $80 discount at the Cineform online store. So that would be $129-$80 = $49 to upgrade.

I haven't upgraded yet but probably will soon. I'm still way back in the stone age with Vegas 9.0e. Too many scary stories about Vegas 10 and Cineform at the moment.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/30/2010, 8:31 AM
> For what it's worth, anyone who is upgrading from Neoscene V1.x can still get a $80 discount at the Cineform online store. So that would be $129-$80 = $49 to upgrade.

Yea, this is what I did. It only cost $49 to upgrade from NeoScene 1.x to 5.2 and it works great with Vegas Pro 10a. If you already own NeoScene v1.x, this is the way to go.

LReavis wrote on 10/30/2010, 12:30 PM
yikes! I overlooked that on the Cineform website; wish I would have known - I hope others read that info so they don't make my mistake