Womble's products do this easily and quickly.

Sony, has anyone there been keeping track of HOW OFTEN people have asked for this? You've got the technology to do this. Don't let anyone tell you how difficult it is (I'm addressing this to product management). It obviously can be done. It is NEEDED. Please include it in the next release.

Hi John. Sony will have to provide this sooner or later (hopefully sooner) as HDV becomes more common and MPEG editing is legitimised. I too would like to see it in the next release.

Richard Hunter

I think the problem is that Sony -- and many other companies -- got stuck in the mindset that MPEG was a delivery format and DV was an editing format. While there are tons of good technical arguments that support that view of the world, it overlooks what should by now be painfully obvious (and was obvious even two years ago) that when virtually every video is published on a DVD, sooner or later everyone is going to have to re-use some of that video because the original source DV material is no longer available.

I agree that Sony will have to release this sooner rather than later not only for the reasons you cite, but also because the competition is already out there with exactly this feature.

Not only that, but I think it's mentioned somewhere, either in the support forums or the Vegas help, that professional DVDs are usually encoded scene by scene, to tailor compression settings where necessary and get the absolute best results given space constraints. I may like to try encoding protions of my video separately, and then be able to join the results together at the end on the Vegas timeline, without having to then re-render.

OK, I'm ready for the slings and arrows.
I don't want Sony to do this, no way in the world. If as has been said there are already a number of products, amd ones that are very cheap, available that can do this why, oh why, do we want to see engineering time spent re-inventing the wheel?
I don't have a problem with them giving Wobble away with the next release or any other such idea.
I'd like to know what the opposition is that can do this by the way?
I don't see Wobble or TMPGEnc as in anyway competition to Vegas. Yes there are high end systems that edit mpeg-2 streams, these cost big time and have pretty beefy hardware. The only way we might see Vegas editing mpeg streams is to have IMX support, that would make sense.
And I support the argument that DVD is a delivery only format, and just stop for a minute and consider this, mpeg-2 is technically a 'dead' format, mpeg-4 is the current emerging standard. Anyone have any idea what it'd take to edit that? I'm not for a minute saying there isn't a huge issue looming. The public doesn't grasp the implications of DVD, this thing has been foisted on them in the mad rush to make sales without a proper explaination so they understand the implications. At least once a week I have to explain these issues to people and they're people in this industry who should get off their butts and do a bit of basic research.

I can think of many things that need to be fixed in Vegas, Ripple Edit would be one, track locking another, there's quite a list I'm sure.

Bob.

Hi Bob. I have no slings nor arrows, but I think you are mistaken. HDV is going to mean that MPEG2 is being used increasingly as an acquisition format and we will need the tools to edit it, not just trim and join clips. In order to maintain as much quality as possible, these tools should not recompress unaltered video, in fact they should treat the material exactly the way Vegas treats DV today and only render where necessary.

I agree that existing systems may choke on MPEG editing, but Canopus Edius software is already allowing MPEG editing, and has some realtime playback capbilites even with a standard OHCI card. Therefore there is no reason I can see that Sony cannot achieve the same thing with Vegas. And if they bring out the intelligent render feature they will be well ahead of the game.

Of course, they should also fix what is not working properly in the current program. :)

Richard

Vegas would be a much more useful product to me if it didn't recompress mpeg - as Richard says, it should treat it the way it does dv, and just re-render where necessary. Premiere has a plugin that not only manages this feat, but makes editing mpeg superfast (no sluggish time delay probelms). However, the Premiere interface is of course disgusting compared to Vegas ...

I remember asking on this forum whether this feature had been implemented when vegas 4 came out ... I'm surprised it is still not here all this time later.

Let me ask one simple question, do any of you know what mpeg is?
I understand how mpeg compression works, I,B & P frames but that is the very simple view of the thing. Quite apart from the CBR / VBR there is a further level of complication, TS, VR etc.

I've had more than one go at editing mpeg, just the simple stuff that gets used in a DVD, well 8 times out of 10 none of the tools that are supposed to work do, and every step of the way a new problem raises it's head.

Now several keep raising HDV as a reason to edit mpeg-2. Well the odd thing is only very few of the proposed editing solutions for editing HDV edit mpeg-2, The FCP solution uses proxies cause even a G5 chokes on the task, the PP and Vegas solution uses an intermediate codec, not only because of CPU load but because decompressing and compressing mpeg is a quick way to make images fall to bits. Now for simple trims / cuts not a problem because you can heal the cut and rebuild the GOP, but try CC or composits and the thing goes pear shaped real quick.
I don't know that much about Edius but I will in a week or so but I'm betting they don't edit the native mpeg stream either.
And yes I've tried editing mpeg-2 with a long GOP in MSP7, after five minutes I gave up, long render times are one thing, waiting five minutes while the thing rebuilds the T/L, forget it!

If anyone can show me where I can get any system on any platform that I can take something as simple as the mpeg output from Vegas, edit that and by that I mean apply CC, FXs and some composits and go down three generations and still have a recognizable image without using some intermediate codec I'm listening.
And here's some more to throw in the fire. The DVD spec isn't based around video, it's based around film (no surprises here, it was the brainchild of the Motion Picture Engineering Group!). Yes, it samples at 4:2:0 so you think PAL would work well with it, wrong, the sampling matrixes are different and this has caused plenty of grief.
I'm now expert, I just know enough to know what I don't know but I've read plenty by those that do and I see insurmountable problems. After all if the problem could be solved why aren't we all using cameras that record straight to DVD?
Clearly anyone who can engineer a solution to the problem is going to make a killing but I haven't even heard of anyone trying so obviously the guys in the various skunk works know it'll never fly.

I'll probably buy Wombble because there's times when I need to do a quick cut on an mpeg file even though I always keep the DV source but I haven't a clue how Wombble is going to cope with not just the vision stream but also my multiple language streams and subtitles and thats before you throw in multiple camera angles.

Bob.

I can see everyone's problem. In my rather simplictic approach, if I need to make a mpeg2, I render from the veggie on the timeline. If I need to do a LB or w/s version on the complete project - I ALWAYS make an AVI from the timeline, then do the conversion from the AVI.
I would never try to do a re-edit or such from a mpeg, it would screw the render to an impossible situation, with GOPS, I,B and P etc.
AVI is the native file, so all should be done from there!

Mel.

farss,

I too don't want to offer slings or arrows, but I too must disagree with your various posts.

1. MPEG-2 is not a dead format. It is used in DVD, several forms of HD, and of course satellite broadcast. It isn't going to disappear anytime soon anymore than CD audio is going to disappear, and it is also a dead format, if you use the definition of dead meaning that a technically superior technology exists somewhere.

2. No one argues that MPEG-2 is a poor choice for editing compared to DV. However, no one is asking Vegas to go down the path that Pinnacle tried to blaze several years ago. All that is needed is the ability to put MPEG-2 on the timeline, do cuts-only editing, and output the result without recompression. Since you can already put MPEG-2 files into Vegas, and can edit those files and then render the results out to a new file in whatever format is required, we are not asking for anything revolutionary in how Vegas operates or even what it can do.

All that is needed is for the rendering engine to be smart enough to do what Vegas already does when rendering DV files. Today, if you put a DV file on the timeline, and nothing is done to a portion of that DV file, then if you render back out to DV, nothing whatsoever is done to the bits on the "untouched" portion of the DV file. No quality is lost, and that portion of the "render" progresses at lightning speed.

All we are asking is that the exact same thing be done when MPEG-2 files are on the timeline, and the project is being rendered to an MPEG-2 format.

This is hardly an earth-shattering change and, as someone with an engineering degree, I am quite certain that given all the MPEG-2 expertise and code at Sony, doing this is not a major undertaking. Having said that, I am certain that there are engineers who would rather do something else that will make up excuses about how difficult it is, when it really isn't. This is where product management and engineering management need vision, courage, and charisma to get implemented the features that matter. One reason Steve Jobs has been spectacularly successful running both Pixar and Apple simultaneously is that he has the vision, and he has the drive to motivate (sometimes very uncomfortably) those around him to implement that vision.

Count up the number of times per week (sometimes per day) that people in this forum ask for ways to re-author and re-use material on their DVDs, and you'll quickly understand how essential this feature is to the future success of Vegas.

agree, tmpeg and the boilsoft.com cutter/joiner tools for mpg edits, and digital-miner.com "chopper" for vob editing (free) are so-simple functionality that Vegas needs to include, to stay competitive.

Not being able to simply, painlessly edit an mpg-2 file in Vegas without having to re-render the entire thing, is poor for a high-end video editing software program. Let's add some needed features, vs having to use so many tools for simple edits.


Ken

Or maybe find a way to let DVD Architect do it, if including this in Vegas creates too many side problems.

I understand everyone's argument for using MPEG2 as source material, but if I were a software programmer, this is why I would avoid it:

Most people will not understand the limitations of editing MPEG2, and as a result will start complaining "How come my dissolves don't look as good as the video before and after?", "How come when I add a title, the picture gets softer?" and many others.

When using DV AVI, the re-rendering generally introduces minimal quality loss, normally not noticed. But MPEG re-rendering introduces a big leap more of quality loss and thus would make match edits, such as dissolves and titles, stand out like sore thumbs. People will always complain and make a programmer wish he had stayed home writing code for a word processor.

Dave T2

When using DV AVI, the re-rendering generally introduces minimal quality loss, normally not noticed. But MPEG re-rendering introduces a big leap more of quality loss and thus would make match edits, such as dissolves and titles, stand out like sore thumbs.

You are absolutely, positively, 100% correct. However, how good does the result look if you don't have a DV AVI at all? The need for this feature is not about wanting to choose to edit MPEG-2 files, but about the real, everyday fact of life that sometimes the DV AVI file is no longer available and MPEG-2 (usually from a DVD) is the only format in which the video still exists.

If the only source available to you is in MPEG format, then would you prefer to have Vegas recompress 100% of the clip and, as you correctly point out, soften everything, or would you rather that 90% of the clip be totally untouched and only the 10% involved in the transitions be degraded?

You've actually made an even better argument than I could have made as to why this feature is needed!

Well, my real point was supposed to be that you are never going to make everybody happy. I find it very distracting when you are "warned" that an effect is about to happen, such as the fuzziness before a dissolve.

I would rather it be consistent, which isn't possible with a partially re-rendered MPEG file.

But, I do agree, there is a market for this and we will probably see either improvements in the coding/recoding or new Codecs introduced that don't have these limitations.

Dave T2

"Now for simple trims / cuts not a problem because you can heal the cut and rebuild the GOP, but try CC or composits and the thing goes pear shaped real quick.
I don't know that much about Edius but I will in a week or so but I'm betting they don't edit the native mpeg stream either."

Hi Bob. Your words got me interested in this. I haven't done much in the way of MPEG editing, but decided to try it out in Edius in OHCI mode (i.e. without hardware support from the Storm card).

In this mode, Edus has a 30 frame buffer that ensures smooth realtime playback as long as the buffer count does not go down to zero. For my test, I just put a couple of MPEG2 clips on the timeline, added colour correction to both, and put one on top of the other as a PIP. The editing response was instant, and the playback smooth. The buffer did not drop below 29 so that means it can play this back in realtime all day.

I then put a 3D transition between 2 clips on track one, and still kept the PIP on track 2. All clips had a CC filter applied. This 3D transition is quite heavy in processing requirements. (To give you a feel for this, it can play realtime on my current PC using the Storm Card, but with my previous MB (a 3.06 GHz P4) it would choke after around 2 seconds.) So now, in OHCI mode, the above set of clips will play smoothly through a transition of up to 5 seconds. After that, the buffer is empty and the playback stutters. This is with a 3.2 Ghz P4 with dual channel DDRAM. A faster system with dual Xeons will no doubt get much better realtime performance.

Bearing in mind that the realtime playback in Edius is full quality video, not the preview quality that Vegas provides, and this performance is quite impressive. I just wish Edius was half as good as Vegas in terms of features and user interface!

And by the way, I could not see any signs of Edius creating any proxy files to speed up the editing performance.

Richard

Since Vegas won't do it you may want to try TMPGEnc Editor, it's only $48. The program will re-render the edited sections only and not the whole MPEG-2. The editor is very primitive compared to Vegas but I use it because there aren't too many other easier options at this time.

P.S. The program also accepts VOB files from non-protected DVD's.

Ron

I second jaegersing, Edius-OHCI real time performance are very impressive (even with mpeg files).

Hi Ron. Thanks for the info on TMPGEnc editor. I didn't know this existed, and you are right, it llooks like this will solve a problem for many. It's just a pity they can't do fades and dissolves, that would have been very nice!

Richard

Richard, the point you're missing is that in order to do fades and dissolves, or anything besides simple blunt cuts, the video would have to be decoded and re-encoded.

Hi Chienworks. What I would like to see is an MPEG editor that only renders the parts that are changed, similar to what Vegas does with DV files. All the other footage does not need re-encoding so should be left untouched. This is what I meant by "intelligent rendering" in an earlier post.

Edius appears to handle the MPEG editing OK, and doesn't choke on the realtime playback, so the concept of an NLE for MPEG is already proven. However, Edius insists or re-rendering everything at output time, so it is not an ideal solution. I think this will change as the need for editing of MPEG acquired video becomes more widespread.

Richard