Vegas 7.0a and AC-3 5.1 Surround

LJA wrote on 9/21/2006, 2:55 PM
I am having considerable trouble with 5.1 AC-3 rendering under Vegas 7.0a, and I would like to find out if others are having similar problems before I report anything to Sony/MMS.

Project Properties: HDV 720p, 5.1 Surround, 48 KHz, 24 bits.
Render Template: 5.1 Surround DVD (all defaults intact).

Problem #1: The rendered AC-3 file appears to have only the "surround" channels, no front channels or center channel (haven't checked LFE). The sound that is present (on the "surround" channels) is very weak. These results have been confirmed in DVDA 3.0c, DVDA 4.0, and on a burned DVD. The same test files render correctly with V 6.0d.

Problem #2: The AC-3 render times are several times longer than rendering from the same VEG with V 6.0d, in fact the render times under V 7 run about 12 to 15 times real time, i.e., 1 second of audio will take between 12 and 15 seconds to render. These factors are consistent up 3:50; I haven't tried a longer project.

Problem #3: AC-3 5.1 Surround will render only once without closing V 7 and reinvoking it. Second and subsequent renders within a V 7 session are corrupted.

Lots of different setting for project and render templates have been tried. They all behave as the example above. All tests work fine with V 6.0d.

V 7.0a works fine with AC-3 Stereo files. They all work as expected and render times are the same with V 6.0d.

HELP!

Comments

ForumAdmin wrote on 9/21/2006, 3:22 PM
Reposted from the Vegas Audio Forum:

Subject: RE: AC3 5.1 render in Vegas 7
Reply by: ForumAdmin (SonyEPM)
Date: 9/19/2006 8:18:49 PM

There is a 5.1 rendering problem in Vegas 7.0a build 115 that is most commonly going to be exposed by AC3 surround encoding. We have fixed this problem internally, it is being tested now, and the fix will be released as part of a general Vegas 7 update "soon"

(we cannot promise an exact release date at this time, soon though).

DJPadre wrote on 9/21/2006, 3:29 PM
Problem #1: The rendered AC-3 file appears to have only the "surround" channels, no front channels or center channel (haven't checked LFE). The sound that is present (on the "surround" channels) is very weak. These results have been confirmed in DVDA 3.0c, DVDA 4.0, and on a burned DVD. The same test files render correctly with V 6.0d.

((how can u verify this when DVDArchitect decoder only decodes in stereo? irrespective of the AC3, DVDA cannot preview in 5.1 (which is SHOULD IMO.. nowadays anyway... )
By surround "channels" i need more info.. are u refering the the rar L and Rear R channels? if u can hear these, u shoudl also be able to hear from FL and FR.... do u have a screengrab of your edit timeline? Seems to be that youve thrown a stereo track into a 5.1 environment, them started messing with levels... I wont know unless i see the project.. when i see it, i'd be able to tell you what the issue is.. ...

As for levels being weak, remember that V7 doesnt retina your old settings, so ensure that yoru dialoogue normalisation is set to -31db and that ur DR Compression is set to film light or off altogether... ))


Problem #2: The AC-3 render times are several times longer than rendering from the same VEG with V 6.0d, in fact the render times under V 7 run about 12 to 15 times real time, i.e., 1 second of audio will take between 12 and 15 seconds to render. These factors are consistent up 3:50; I haven't tried a longer project.
((Considering they touting Multithreaded rendering service in V7 vs single core rendering in v6, maybe your confiruation wiht threading is off?? Also what plugins are you running and what kind of volume enveloping do you have? again, seeing this with yoru audio plugins box visible wold help in determining the issue.. but as theyre saying V7 is faster with audio rendering, i find this news quite disturbing. ))

Problem #3: AC-3 5.1 Surround will render only once without closing V 7 and reinvoking it. Second and subsequent renders within a V 7 session are corrupted.
((strange.. how do u mean corrupted? Is V7 crashing is the encode defective? How is it defective? Whats happenign for it to be considered corrupt?))

Lots of different setting for project and render templates have been tried. They all behave as the example above. All tests work fine with V 6.0d.

((OK... ))

V 7.0a works fine with AC-3 Stereo files. They all work as expected and render times are the same with V 6.0d.
((Id have thought it would actually be quicker.... ))
DJPadre wrote on 9/21/2006, 3:33 PM
ForumADMIN, can you please verify if AC3 rendering is in fact "tweaked" to service myltithreaded CPU's?
At the moment, up til V6, audio rendering has only been a single core event...

Im hoping , like many, that audio rendering has improved in speed...
LJA wrote on 9/21/2006, 4:25 PM
Yes, by "surround" channels I mean left and right rear speakers. This was verified by sending various sounds to specific speakers and then listening to which appeared in DVDA and on the burned DVD. I turned the gain on my surround system up all the way -- nothing there for the three front speakers. Also tried tests with dialog normalization at -31 and line mode and RF mode profiles at "none". No joy.

No audio FX applied. Render threads set to 3.

"Corrupted" means VERY LOUD white noise, verified in both DVDA 3 and 4. I presently have no means for analyzing it further.

AC-3 stereo renders may have been somewhat quicker; I didn't check carefully, but I didn't think that they were dramatically quicker (on small files).
DJPadre wrote on 9/21/2006, 4:50 PM
"Corrupted" means VERY LOUD white noise, verified in both DVDA 3 and 4. I presently have no means for analyzing it further."

Can i ask.. on DVDA, when u see the waveform along the timeline, did u have spiked distortions at random intervals? Could you SEE the blown out wave form??

I had this issue when DVDA 2 came out then again with 3... the AC3.dll wasnt right (as i had older versions of Vegas and DVDA installed as well as teh AC3 Softencode.. and so, DVDA would read the FIRST AC3.dll but NOT the appropriate one for the appropriate app... theyre all named the same, but as the older versions are installed in a "higher" directlory, theyre the ones the app fishes out.. as opposed to fishing out the appropriate DLL. it willuse the first one it comes across.. but NOT take the latest one into consideration.

Do u still ahve V6 installed? This could be the issue.. for me, i had to remove AC3 softencode to get DVDA to work again...

considering how many people own this app, this problem is a needle ina haystack..
bryce87 wrote on 9/21/2006, 4:58 PM
I'm having a similar problem exporting to WMV 5.1 - except only the front L and R channels were rendered - the others ended up blank.
DJPadre wrote on 9/21/2006, 5:46 PM
WMV is a totaly different format altogether... hmm...
maybe theyve done something to the Vegas mixer.... during rendering i mean...

strange one..
fldave wrote on 9/21/2006, 7:02 PM
DJPadre,

I'm rendering 5.1 in V7 right now and it looks like it's only using 1 of my 2 cpus.
DJPadre wrote on 9/21/2006, 7:14 PM
damn thats sucks..

so what were they saying about the "mutithreaded" support in audio rendering?

Grr.. im just trying to finsih this projct before i try V7...

fldave wrote on 9/21/2006, 7:29 PM
DJ,

I tried it again for you with .wav output. Definitely both cpu's utilized. But I also tried it with wav in V6 with both cpus cranking. Don't know what the multithreaded support means either.

But the additional output formats in V7 for wav are very nice. Way beyond V6. up to 96kHz 24bit PCM, 96kHz 32bit IEEE float.

V6 only goes to 48kHz 16 bit on the same machine.
DJPadre wrote on 9/21/2006, 7:54 PM
up to 96kHz 24bit PCM, 96kHz 32bit IEEE float.

Hmm.. i wonder if DVDArchitect will support DVDAudio?? hehehehe prolly not... if only they gave us a DolbyLossless or TrueHD format... now THAT would seriously kick..

im still baffled abotu what they mean by multithreaded support for audio though (ac3 primarily, considering most of us render out ac3 when working with video... )...
if it doesnt do ac3 across 2 cores.. what are they babbling on about then??
Jey wrote on 9/22/2006, 3:38 AM
Same problems here!
I was thinking it was caused by opening a v6 project in v7, but after rebuilding the project the rendering still went 'wrong'.
This means I have to do my surround projects in v6 until the fix will be available...
dreamlx wrote on 9/22/2006, 10:56 PM
Will the memory leak concerning the cineform codec also be fixed by this release ?

Thanks in advance
Bye,
David Arendt
DJPadre wrote on 9/23/2006, 7:00 AM
eh? say what?
dreamlx wrote on 9/23/2006, 7:46 AM
DJPadre,

Maybe you didn't see which message I replied to, I replied to the message of ForumAdmin. I also needed to switch to threaded view to see that you have replyed to me. Maybe an idea for a future version of the forum software would be to include something like: Reply to mail from: ... as generally I prefer the nonthreaded view except for cases when I don't know to which message a reply is referring.
Carolus wrote on 9/27/2006, 12:58 AM
I have the same problem with Vegas 7.0a !!!!!
So I hope Sony Media Softwarer will show up soon with Vegas 7.0 b or any patch to settle that problem.

Thanks
dvboy wrote on 10/8/2006, 12:02 PM
This is a bummer. I've got the same problem.

Any news on the fix release date?????
dannyoneill wrote on 10/8/2006, 12:22 PM
Nope, last post I saw saying it was due for release was back in september.

Ive got around it all by rendering as 6 seperate PCM wavs then importing into vegas 6 (installed on a virtual machine) and then rendering as AC3 in that.

Its a hell of a major flaw in 7. Rendering is just slow, really bad quality sound and not in surround.