Vegas 8.1 and AVCHD: bad match.

Sebaz wrote on 11/9/2008, 10:39 AM
I've been all morning enduring frustration because I'm trying to put together one of those videos where you can't just throw all the raw footage at the timeline and start cutting, but instead where you have to choose parts and thus use the trimmer to make it easier. And it would be easier in probably any other NLE, at least the ones that carry the label "Pro", but not with Vegas Pro 8.1.

I'm running Vista 64 Home Premium from a totally brand new installation from scratch, with not a lot of software running in the background, and everything else runs as smooth as a baby's ass. But Vegas, as usual, is the renegade of the bunch, crashing and doing things it's not supposed to do.

I'm loading clips in the trimmer to select in and out to send to the timeline, and the program just stalls. It doesn't crash in the usual way, there's no warning, the program stays visible, but it's completely useless. The only way is to force it to quit and re open it. But this hasn't happened to me just a couple of times. It happened about twenty times since I started editing about three hours ago.

Until when users of Vegas will have to be subject to this mediocrity in software programming? Why can't Sony Creative TEST their software and not release it until it's actually ready to be used by editors, whether it's professional or amateur ones? This company has to understand something basic: when you pay money for a software program it has to offer a decent reliability. You can't pay attention to your editing when the damn thing keeps stalling on you over and over.

And no, I'm pretty sure that it's not my computer or my installation of Vista. I actually purchased the 64-bit version of it from MS and installed it on a clean drive to be able to use 8.1 because of the supposed advantages. And while I see certain increase in performance, I also realize that I'm using very mediocre software. It's very upsetting, and frustrating to say the least.

Comments

jimingo wrote on 11/9/2008, 10:46 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with AVCHD. I reported the same problem a while ago with Vista64 and Vegas 8.1 with regular DV footage. Vegas 8.1 freezes when trying to ue the trimmer or soon after exiting the trimmer.
tcbetka wrote on 11/9/2008, 12:16 PM
Well I actually use version 8.1 with AVCHD files, most of the time now...since I installed Vista 64 Home Premium. I must say that I don't use the trimmer in Vegas all that much, so there could certainly be an issue there that I am not aware of. But as far as handling AVCHD files goes, 8.1 works MUCH better for me than version 8.0c does (even on Vista 64). I am working on a project this afternoon and cannot test the 8.1 trimmer yet, but will tonight after I have finished. I just haven't run into this problem yet though.

Do you still have problems with AVCHD files when working in 8.1 without using the trimmer? My frame rates are 28fps plus 99% of the time...

TB
Sebaz wrote on 11/9/2008, 3:38 PM
Do you still have problems with AVCHD files when working in 8.1 without using the trimmer? My frame rates are 28fps plus 99% of the time...

I don't have as many problems working only on the timeline. It does hang from time to time though. I think it's really pathetic that Sony Creative releases a software with such poor testing.
tcbetka wrote on 11/9/2008, 3:48 PM
Well, I have been trying to make 8.1 fail/crash/hang for about 20-30 minutes now, and have been snipping apart AVCHD & HDV files in the trimmer. But I cannot make it fail--I load them, play them in the trimmer, cut them apart, play them some more, create sub clips, and everything else I can think of...but I cannot get the application to crash.

Please give me some specifics so that I can try to duplicate your issue here, if possible. What type of file were you working with? Also, I saw your system specs but all the RAM says is more than 1GB. How much RAM do you have?

TB
Sebaz wrote on 11/9/2008, 5:01 PM
I'm working only with AVCHD files that came from my Canon HF100, imported with the Pixela Imagemixer software that came with the camera. I have 4 GB of DDR2 RAM, OCZ Platinum.
PeterWright wrote on 11/9/2008, 5:21 PM
I know little about AVCHD, but you should at least try importing the footage with Vegas instead of Pixela, just in case that makes a difference.
Sebaz wrote on 11/9/2008, 5:36 PM
I use Pixela because it helps to keep the files organized, and for easier access, and smart rendering when I do simple videos. It doesn't do anything to the file itself except for changing the extension to m2ts and joining files together if the take produced a file larger than 1.98 GB in the camera.

Still, I tried playing with the file importing it straight from the camera and I got the same results regarding the trimmer.
tcbetka wrote on 11/9/2008, 8:43 PM
No, I can't imagine that it's the import application--my Sony SR11 has the same sort of proprietary application, and I used it every single time I imported AVCHD files. So I don't think that's the issue at all. The Sony camera files have a .m2ts extension as well, by the way.

How much RAM do you have? I never really tried processing AVCHD files with the 4GB RAM I had when I first installed Vista 64 but as I said, things work really nicely on the timeline with 8GB ram; although I am not sure that RAM will have much to do with it, as long as you have in excess of the 2GB or so needed by the bloated Vista OS. I would think that playing an AVCHD file on the timeline would work just as well with 4 as it does with 8GB of RAM.

The last thing I will say about my system is that I only use this particular machine for audio/video processing. I rarely have it connected to the internet (only to do an update, basically), and thus do not run any sort of anti-virus software or firewall. And I have turned off all non-essential bloat at start-up. I am pretty convinced that the variability we are seeing in different users' systems, is related to the variability between the systems. Personally, I think the more stuff loaded on the machine, the more problems people have. That's really the only way I can think to explain why some of us have no real problems working with AVCHD files in version 8.1, while others seem to have all kinds of problems. From what I can tell, the majority of regular users on this forum are pretty knowledgeable about basic computer concepts, and are savvy enough to figure out when there's a Windows-related, versus an application-related, issue. But this is only a theory of mine, and I freely admit that I may be wrong.

TB
Cliff Etzel wrote on 11/9/2008, 10:29 PM
THis is an observation, but it appears anyone who uses a Canon camera tends to experience issues with their file format as compared to SONY cameras. IT may have to do with some oddball change Canon makes to their files when recording, but I don't tend to see SONY AVCHD users having the kinds of problems users have with Canon cameras.

Then again, AVCHD (and to a certain extent HDV) seems to have its issues with editing in general - maybe something as simple as purchasing AVCHD Upshift would resolve the issues around this. I hear alot of users rant and rave about Canon cameras, yet those same people piss and moan about ingesting the footage from these same Canon cameras - that includes PPro and FCP.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | solo video journalism blog
tcbetka wrote on 11/10/2008, 10:37 AM
I tend to agree with you Cliff. When I was looking for a camera to buy, I saw some comments to this effect. And then I saw some comments from a fellow with an Sony SR12, indicating that he was having no issues with AVCHD files. So that's one of the main reasons I bought Sony cameras. I have nothing bad to say about Canon cameras mind you, as they are rated at or above the level of the Sony units, for the most part. But I simply wanted to minimize the potential issues, as I was trying to learn Vegas, digital videography, and all the information about HD versus SD formats.

So there may indeed be something to what you say...

TB
jimingo wrote on 11/10/2008, 1:33 PM
I believe that the issue Sebaz reported has absolutely nothing to do with AVCHD or any kind of captured media. This is a problem with Vegas 8.1's trimmer.
I started a new project in 8.1 with absolutely no imported media at all. I dragged a checkerboard pattern from the generated media and placed it on the timeline. I then opened the checkerboard patten in the trimmer. As soon as I closed the trimmer, Vegas 8.1 froze. The only media in my project was the checkerboard pattern. I can't repeat this every time but it does happen on occasion.

It doesn't really bother me becuase I don't use the trimmer but there's got to be something wrong with it as this does not happen in 8.0
tcbetka wrote on 11/10/2008, 1:50 PM
When you say "closed the trimmer" do you mean that you selected a different tab besides that for the trimmer? I don't know of another way to close it, other than ALT + 2 to actually eliminate the trimmer tab altogether. But even this doesn't cause 8.1 to crash for me. I have tried everything I can think for more than an hour, but I just cannot make the application freeze or crash. Obviously though, if more than one or two people are having this same problem, there must be an issue--I just can't duplicate it here.

Has anyone checked the 8.1 bug thread to see if this has been mentioned at all? I don't remember it being in there, but it's been a while since I read the thread.

TB
jimingo wrote on 11/10/2008, 2:17 PM
Sorry...I meant getting rid of the trimmer completely by clicking on the "x"
tcbetka wrote on 11/10/2008, 3:13 PM
Ah-HA! That did it. It hung for me as well... I hadn't thought of closing it by clicking on the 'X' though, lol.

But the good news for you is that I couldn't make it fail without that--so the workaround is to use ALT+2 to close the trimmer (or don't close it at all), instead of hitting the 'X' to close it. No offense meant here, but why do you need to close it at all? I guess maybe you don't want that extra tab in there? I can see that I suppose...but then just use the ALT+2 thing, and you shouldn't have a problem.

I have to go out for a couple hours this evening, but when I get the chance I am going to search the various 8.1 bug threads to see if this has been reported. If not, we should report it to the development team.

TB
jimingo wrote on 11/10/2008, 3:41 PM
True...no need to close the trimmer. It just points out that it's probably a problem with the trimmer rather than the footage.
tcbetka wrote on 11/10/2008, 7:33 PM
Well, you may be right...

I just got 8.1 to crash by trying to "undo" a trimmer cut to the timeline. I was working with an HDV file, and not an AVCHD clip. So it appears as though there is an issue.

TB

EDIT: Looks like megabit has already found this issue, and reported it in http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=620091this thread[/link]. Look at the first post in the thread, item #7.

Wow--re-reading that thread tonight, I realize just how many issues with version 8.1 that there are. When that thread was going, I didn't know what half of those things meant, but since then I have come to understand most of those issues, and appreciate why they are problems.