I spend (waste) more time re-rendering than anything else. Trying to get the file sizes right so the DVD can be created is my single biggest part of working with any video.

There have been times I have had to re-render something 5 times to get it to fill 99% of a DVD. When those renders take 12 to 14 hours each, it gets expensive and very, very frustrating.

There have been times when under a crunch I simply render the thing as an uncompressed AVI, then let my 8 year old Pinncle software create the DVD. That way I never have to worry about having to re-render it. Sure, it is a fixed bit rate, but it gets the job done.

I never put that much thought and effort into it. I use the simple formula Mbps = 600 / minutes. For example, if i have a 94 minute video, 600 / 94 = 6.383. I subtract 0.2 to make room for audio and a title screen, so i end up with a VBR of 6.18 for the video. Works every time.

Sure, sometimes it'll only fill 98.5% of the disk instead of 99.5%, but ... who cares? The extra few kbps it would allow isn't going to make any noticeable difference in image quality. None of my clients are going to call be back and say "how come you left 2.3MB unused on this disc?"

I always used a fixed bitrate. If you are within 1 to 1 1/2 hours of video, I don't see any advantage of using a VBR. If you use a fixed bitrate (CBR) then the calculations for size are very easy.

VBR is really only useful when you are trying to fit a lot of video on a disk.

Dave T2

I wish I could get that close Chienworks. My typical video is about 2 to 2.5 hours in length. Getting those on a single sided DVD seems to be stupid difficult for me.

I've used bitrate calculators and it still takes several renders to get them to fit.

http://www.johncline.com/bitcalc110.zip
I set the Safety Margin to 5% and it hasn't let me down yet.

Mike

I'm looking for more direction than specifically on how to get more than 2 hrs on a Dvd.

Such as, If I want the highest quality product for a wedding video, do I use the Render As Default Template, which does both video and audio?
At this point if I choose Custom, the next screen shows the Video rendering quality: Good, I suspect I would change this to Best

Then while still in custome do I leave as VBR and check the Two-pass box?

Do I change the Video quality slider to High 15?


Or,
Do I use the default Template, DVD Architect NTCS video stream?
Which again after selecting the Custom box, show the Video rendering quality as Good rather than Best. Now the video quality slider again, VBR, Two-pass.

If I do use the DVD Architect template, I don't get which audio render selection to use.

And when I make these choices, I'm trying to understand what each selection actually does or tweaks during the Render process, therefore the Render guide request I made during the beginning of my original post.

Any further quidance is appreciated.

There is discussion about the GOOD vs. BEST. I use BEST all of the time. Things render a little slower. BEST is what you want to use if you have resized any video (such as PIP) or did any moves on stills. GOOD works otherwise.

The slider should be the highest. This determines the quality of the rendering (basically how much math is done on the compression).

CBR if you have an hour or less (although I use it most of the time) set at 8mps. The reason you do audio seperately is because AC3 audio is the DVD standard. If you do the audio with the Video you get an MPEG audio layer that not all DVD players will play since it is not part of the DVD standard. Normally 192 bitrate is fine for AC3 audio.

As was said earlier VBR is good if you need more than an hour of video. It causes the bitrate (another determination of quality) to vary based on the video content. Static video can withstand more compression with less artifacts than action video, so it will get a lower bitrate.

The final quality is determined by BITRATE, the video quality setting (should always be at the highest) and of course the content of the video itself. Bad quality video will not be improved by any of the above.

Hope this helps some.

Dave T2

Yes it sure does, concise, to the point and the right amount of explanation.
Normally in life I'm a "Just the facts ma'am". But when it comes to this video stuff which I really enjoy being involved in, a little extra goes a long way.

Thanks Dave

1. NEVER use the Default template. The quality settings are totally screwed up. ALWAYS use one of the "DVD Architect" templates (PAL/NTSC/4:3/16:9, as appropriate).

2. ALWAYS use a bitrate calculator to determine the average bitrate (when using variable bitrate) or the constant bitrate when using CBR. I've done thousands and thousands of renders and have never once had to re-do a render. (OK, I've had to re-do a lot of renders, but never because the file size was too large to fit on a DVD).

3. Don't bother using 2-pass variable bitrate unless your project is longer than 85 minutes.

4. There are several good bitrate calculators you can use, some of which have already been posted (I even have one that I developed!). However, if you want, you can simply go to this site and enter the numbers into a web form:

Videohelp Bitrate Calculator

5. Don't mess with any of the other settings in the MPEG-2 encoder other than the average bitrate and the video rendering quality (found under the Project tab once you click the Custom button in the Render As dialog).

6. Speaking of the video rendering quality, some people always set it to Best. You can do this, but there is a significant performance penalty if you do this, and Sony claims, and I have done test which confirm this, that there is no improvement in quality if all your source media is the same resolution as your output render. However, if your source media is higher or lower resolution than your output (for example, rendering HD to DVD resolution, or rendering still photos to pretty much any resolution), then you DEFINITELY should set the rendering quality to Best. Otherwise, leave it at Good and save yourself a lot of rendering time. Don't ever use anything less than Good.

DWhiteman,

You seem to have a clue, so I am going to offer my spin on johnmeyer's observations in the hope that you will gain some additional glimmer as to why this is all so important.

1) Yes, as appropriate to your part of the globe.

2) Yes.

3) I would say always use 2-pass if it is longer than 70 minutes. You make the choice.

4) Yes. For convenience you can also download that calculator for local use. It is the one I use more often than several equally good alternatives.

5) Yes, unless you are encoding from another MPEG-2 source. In that case, the Maximum and Average bitrate, as well as the Field Order, should be set exactly the same as your source, in order to take advantage of the Smart Render feature.

6) Usually, there is no quality hit. However, I always default it to Best, in the instance that I have done a Pan/Crop or Track Motion or an Effect somewhere in a lengthy Project, which would then require a rerender if first done (failed) at Good. The time consequence in rendering has never been greater than 15%, in exhaustive tests I ran a few years ago (on my system, see #7 below).

7) YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary. Understand that there are as many system combinations as there are users on this forum.

The "right" results for you are the ones that work!

That being said, take all advice with a grain of salt, and dare to make enough mistakes in order to learn from them. Just my thoughts.

Well, I envy anyone who can figure out how to get 2 hours of video on a single-sided DVD and do only one render. I have yet to be able to get one to fit on the first try.

I wish dual-layer worked. That would make it easier, but after tossing a stack on 10 discs away, I gave up on that. Even the Sony burner could not play them at the break.

I suppose I could look for some decent multi-disc cases and burn across two discs. Maybe that would help. Using VBR seems to be more black-magic than science.

Skuzzy, grab the calculator I linked to earlier and set the safety margin to 5%.
I've done several 2 hr. DVDs over the years and the numbers from this calculator have never let me down.
If you don't want to be bothered, use the following VBR numbers:
8,000,000 / 4,688,000 / 2,808,000
I always do a 2 hr. encode as a 2-pass render.
Also, I use Best mode because I quite often have a lot of titles and images and this helps maintain the quality.

Mike

Well, I envy anyone who can figure out how to get 2 hours of video on a single-sided DVD and do only one render. I have yet to be able to get one to fit on the first try.
Another thing: If DVD Architect tells you that the file is too big to fit, DON'T BELIEVE IT!

DVDA is grossly negligent about computing project size correctly, an will often tell you that the project is 5.0 GB and therefore cannot possibly fit on a 4.7/4.3 GB DVD. Go ahead and prepare the project and then put the files in Nero or Imgburn. I think you'll find that they fit.

Go ahead and prepare the project and then put the files in Nero or Imgburn. I think you'll find that they fit.

Or close your DVDA Project after preparing and re-open it. DVDA will now report the correct size because it is now working off the actual file sizes.

I double-check my mpeg-2 & AC-3 file sizes before I launch DVDA.
I know they're under the limit so I ignore any warnings it puts up and it goes ahead and does the Prepare without any further hassles.

Mike

Subject: RE: Vegas 8 Render As - DVD Arch, so many options?
Posted by: Skuzzy
Date: 1/30/2010 12:04:05 PM

"I wish dual-layer worked."

Errmm... It works fine here!?! (so long as you stick to legal settings). I use them all the time (most of my big projects have been live 2 hour+ performances). There have been a couple of quite old (cheap) players in France that wouldn't play them - but they also struggled with some commercial discs also.

edit: God, I wish SCS would use decent forum software - like DVInfo perhaps!!??

Another thing: If DVD Architect tells you that the file is too big to fit, DON'T BELIEVE IT!

Now see, that is something I never thought about. I just belived it when DVDA complained.


Porpoise1954 I have gone through 3 diferent DVD burners and while they all completed the render and urn for dual-layer, none of discs would play passed the break. All I would get is garbage. I use Imgburn for all my burns.

The Sony DVD player (S7700) I use is old, but plays dual-layer pre-recorded media just fine.