It sounds like his boss wants to stand over his sholder after the first draft of a new project and say...

"Change that..."
"Hmmmm"
"Now change that back..."
"Hmmmm"
"Now do this..."
etc

So, he want's to be the Producer, Director, Editor, everything... and stand around pulling strings and watching his employee's jump :)

Maybe you should get a job with someone who has confidence in you as a professional and forget about this poor mis-guided fellow.

Will

You now get the full version of LightWave7.5 with VT 3 and this is the way it will stay.

NewTek doesn't provide a storage controller with their card. So unlike the Leitch/DPS solutions - you are free to grow as new storage methods come out.

Many folk don't need the switching capability provided with DV and SX-8 sourced inputs. However the class of software is that of a realtime engine that can handle multiple YUV streams with only a reasonable increase in computing requirements.

VT 3 is a force to be reckoned with in the Standard Def domain. The support forums are very agreeable too. The best part is that the VT card just keeps on going - Broadcast spec et al. The software is updated many times during the year for no charge. This includes many new features and any bug fixes are turned around interactively and fast.

If you want a unique look with custom FX/DVEs. VT is certainly a good way to head. It does have an niche for the animator and composite/e-media developer. Vegas is more general purpose but VT is very much for the modern broadcaster. You don't need a tight budget to justify purchasing it. It is a careful purchase for your business, that should as a final notice be purchased carefully. A dealer is required for those that are less than computer savvy. Vegas runs well on pretty well everything but has an element of bottleneck through its resolution independent filters and expert audio support.

Didn't read ALL the posts, so if I'm repeating someone, then I'm sorry...

One thing ANYBODY should consider when choosing between Premiere and Vegas (other than the hands-down better audio support in Vegas) is TIME. Vegas is so easy to use, the amount of time involved to do the same task in Premiere is much greater (I know ex-Premiere users who never stop talking about this fact). How much is an editor's time worth? If you can trim 2 or 3 hours off each project, that's money in the bank.

I am a bit late in jumping in on this because I have been busy editing away over the last few days. Anyhow - I zipped over the posts and I think I can add this - As I have said in other posts if you need real "real time" of multi layers than VV is probably not the NLE for you. There is another whole thread that deals with the VV / Hardware issue and for real 'real time' it is really a hardware issue, not a software issue at this time. Premiere has plenty of hardware support coming in from other vendors while VV does not. It is as simple as that in reguards to your first post where you said: "Now where I stand is that my boss has looked at the project being displayed on PREMIERE 6.5 with hardware making it 'real time' with full resolution previewing." So, in a sense, you already answered the question about "What do we need to make VEGAS truly be 'real-time- full resolution previewing from the timeline? Is there really a way to do this with only software?"

Over on the DMN forums there is a thread about what to charge for "render time". If you haven't read it you should. A lot of posts try to say people that are hung up on the "real time" aspect just don't get it...but in my experiance that isn't the point for the most part. Nor is it the point about how much money your boss/owner makes...the point is that someone comes in and wants something done. They are paying money for that usually by the hour, and if they can go upstairs and get it in real "real time" chances are they will. If your goal is to book a few hours of editing time and walk out of there with a final product than VV is not going to work...unless it is a cuts only project. For the most part time is money and waiting for hours for something to render just doesn't cut it in these cases. In a perfect world the only thing(s) that would matter to a client is how good the final product is and not how long it takes, or what you use, to get there...but this is far fom a perfect world, more exact - this is far from a perfect industry.

Now having said the above with VV, and other NLE's, people are getting a lot of things crossed over. What I mean is this - if I edit something I should be worried about editing only. I can worry about where a dissolve or a fade would go and I can eyeball out where an effect shot might go and slug that section if need be. So if a client came in and wanted to hire you with your system to edit than VV could do very well with that as long as it was understood the material had to be digitized first and than output back to tape with 'minimal' renders if there were any 'basic' effects - fades, dissolves, motion changes. However if a client came in and wanted a complex effect sequence worked on than one would hope they already have the idea that this is not something that could be done in real time - than it would be a non-issue. In between we have things like basic green screen/blue screen and if all a client wants to to do that - but in real time - than VV is probably not for you. And what about color correction? Touch any frame of video and VV will have to render...touch the entire project and you are looking a potentially long render time. If I had a completed project and wanted real time color correction I would not go to someone who used VV. Why? Because I can book time somewhere and walk out with a color corrected master in "real" time. If I walked into to a place that used only VV I would have to wait for the material to be digitized and than worked on and than re-rendered and dumped back out. So going back to what I said - people get all worked up now because many NLE's claim to be 'real time' and they are not all that 'real time', especially if they are software 'only' based. VV is trying to be sort of a swiss army knife of NLE's - it wants to do everything and people love to defend it on those grounds - "Hey it can do whatever any other DAW can do, it can do what any other NLE can do and hell, it can even do whatever any other compositing program can do." But I keep saying that people just need to step back and look at what *they* need to do - not what VV can do. And in keeping what that - you need to know what your *clients* needs are because they pay your bills.

It sounds like what the owner of the company needs is somethng that can handle multi layers of real time effects. Something that can be output via the timeline without a PTT if need be and something a client can sit in the edit suite and watch unfold without asking "Why is the video skipping?".

I would suggest giving Metro Video a call and telling them your situation. Tell them you want to come over see a demo of various systems for comparison as it relates to real 'real time' and 'real time' output. They're in Burbank so if you feel like taking a drive their phone is (818) 562-1200 or you can try emailing Les at les@metvid.com with the exact needs that you have.

And the bottom line is that if your boss / owner of the company really has the need to spend the money on a 'costly' system he would not be considering VV or even Premiere. He would be out looking at a full fledged Avid set up, a Discreet suite or a da Vinci TLC system.

Just wanted to see a show of hands of those who actually use an external monitor with vegas? and if not why? I ask because i find that i can't use because even at draft the preview is not at full frame rates

I can't offer anymore solutions to your problem than have already been presented. I can however offer a sugestion / observation after viewing the video you have on your site. GET SOMEONE ELSE TO DO THE VOICE OVER. While she has a good voice over all, her pacing and annunciation are weak.

Just a point. You shouldn't try to run playback in "Best" mode. Best should be renamed as "extensive" or something. Run at good or preview and your playback will be better. Also, you'll get better performance if you don't simulate device aspect ratio.

Rob Mack

I always use the external monitor in Preview Auto. Works very well on a PIII 750MHz but I will agree that I do not get full framerates all the time. However, it works well enough to see what I'm doing!

I agree with jetdv. I run to an NTSC TV/Monitor and unless I am adding a lot of filters and such i get good, real time, frame rates. On the other stuff, provided I have frame recompression turned on, I get stop motion-ish playback and it is good enough for me. Would I use this for a client? No way.

I always use an external NTSC monitor.

Most of my products are destined for a video/DVD consumer or broadcast market, so NTSC monitor is the only way to check color, underscan, etc.

I find that "Preview, Full" is just fine for most applications. I switch to "Good, Full" when checking color. But then, I work primarily in cinema verite-style documentary, so I use minimal effects. Even so, I can usually do 2-3 layers at near-full frame rate on my Athlon XP 2700 system.

BTW, After Effects is considered a "professional" standard for compositing, yet it doesn't do much (if anything )in real time.

Let the Boss get whatever system he wants. Then add Vegas on as your multi-track AUDIO application. Does he really need to know that it does video, too?

Nobody has talked about Dynamic RAM previews in Vegas. Maybe the boss will find this to be "good enough".

Craig H.

>>>BTW, After Effects is considered a "professional" standard for compositing, yet it doesn't do much (if anything )in real time.<<<

Correct, however because faster systems and more RAM are very common these days it is very easy to just do previews to RAM and than playback is real 'real time'. Yes you have to wait for a bit of a render but wait time is dependant on system speed and the end result is you get real time playback. (And you can do a preview to RAM in VV as well) For After Effects NTSC output I use the Echo Fire plug-in which gives you a few options for how to preview. However I think it just accepted that if you use After Effects or other compositing programs you aren't going to walk in and get real time output anyway. After Effects is not an NLE, so people should not think of it as such.

I didn't mean to imply that AE is an NLE. Just that people's expectations influence perception. No one cares that you have to render in AE, because no one expects a compositing application to be "real time" (whatever that means).

LOL!

So why then do some people get so frustrated with "real time" in Vegas when it is draggihg because it is COMPOSITING multiple audio/video tracks, processing complex transations, filter effects ?

I've said it before and time to say it again. Rendering is the FINAL step. It takes as long as it takes. Period. All those that get their shorts all in a bunch over "real time" previews in my opinion don't have a firm grip on what the process is all about. All the excuses; I got a client looking over my shoulder, or I have to see how it looks at full frame rate blah, blah, blah. A big BALONEY!

Part of being a GOOD editior is TRUST. Either you know what you and the software you're using is capable of or you don't and you're looking for a crutch. Its like the director doing take ten, then before long he's up to take twenty and thirty.

BB - we're now up to 41 posts here - I really need your advice, again. Shorts aren't bunched, and ears and eyes wide open.

I realise I've an under specified laptop -1ghtz PIII and a miserable 256 RAM. I get failry decent firewire to TV external monitor Previews. Yes I know it will depend on how much maths the CPU and other stuff will need to do with the amount/number of tracks and FXs and Media generation sets I've got going, but, but, but, would would be a typical, say: 4xvideo tracks with FXs and dissolves and attached Audio - require to run smoothly enough to see the results on an external Monitor? I love using the monitor, becasue it does truly show what I'm gonna get.

Now, this is because I really can't get enough "view" of what will be on my present miserable set-up. I have to have the Preview window down really small - maybe 2" square - honest! Don't even go to Best unless I've rendered out that section. Yeah? So, another thought, how would better/faster spec allow for better Preview on PC [not external]? What, in your opinion, would be the most usable spec. It's a "working" Preview I'm after. I need this to "see" the effect of what I do. - Yes I know this is boring, I don't wanna put anybody's [ esp Yours! ] shorts in a bunch. Nice image though!

BB - I wait with baited breath . . .

Grazie

I work with clients over my shoulder every day. I don't use Vegas on my real work because I work with a production company. These clients have to see real time, full resolution video. It's not a matter of editor trust, or an excuse. If they are paying $500 an hour for studio time, they want to know what they are getting. It is not a crutch, it is a fact.

If your clients are more understanding, I envy you.

Dave T2

Grazie,
its a good question but I think an impossible one to give a good answer to. There's just too many variables. Its not just the number of tracks is the type of transistions etc.

But here's a thought that might help a little. Try rendering a section of the most complex section of video you typically work with. What is the ration of the time it takes VV relative to real time?

Thats got to be some approximation to how much you need to wind up the wick to get real time preview. There will ba some other factors to consider. Your measuring render time to disk not RAM so that will slow things down. Conversely the render doesn't have to be decompressed so it can be written to video RAM so that makes it a bit faster.

But I'll bet even for fairly simple transitions / effects you'll find yourself needing a 20 GHz P4. If you find one at a good price let us know.

Grazie... as usual you crack me up.

Trying to do video editing on a underpowered laptop is like trying to paint your house with one of those little 1/8 inch artiist brushes. You can I suppose, buy WHY would you want to torture yourself like that?

As far as the central issue of this thread, so-called "real" time previewing on an external monitor, I simply haven't and refuse to accept it as a REAL ISSUE and therefore will continue to refer to such discussions as subterfuge to the underlying issue which as I have alluded to, being lack of faith in one's own abilities or not really understanding what the software is capable of and knowing how the project will turn out ONCE RENDERED.

As far as those offering up the limp excuse along the lines; but oh... my client has to see real time I offer the following choices:

a. you're using the WRONG hardware
b. your're using the WRONG software
c. both of the above

If somebody is charging $500 a hour, I would think they could afford the hardware/software to generate true "real time" previewing. For a few that constantly whine, and being blunt as I always am that is the right word, to describe what we're hearing: whining... Vegas doesn't do "real time" rendering you:

a. don't understand the use of term in the context used
b. don't understand the limitations and disadvantage of tying software to some specific hardware.
c. expect too much, WAY TOO MUCH at the price level Vegas is marketed at.

Couple final things.

1. Do not set preview to Best. Use Good, ever Preview quality. That will bump up the frame rate and get you closer to "real" time previewing.

2. Realize that once you get to about 14 frames per second the motion should be smooth enough to judge what you did on the timeline as far as it being correct or not.

3. Do a search under Sonic EPM. Some months back he posted a very detailed how-to for setting up and testing if or not you have your external monitor set up correctly relative to frame rate. Just one setting off can translate into a much slower frame rate than your setup otherwise can produce.

farss - Excellent response. I can deal with ratios . . . but yes, neat & simple - like me - analysis. Not sure about my neatness tho' ?

Billy Boy - Billy Boy - What can I say? It's Friday .. I've been out filming a Garden Centre all day - nice weather . . but yes, I aint into torturing myself . . well there was this short spell back in the '60s where . . . no I daren't, not here anyway . . . point taken. Time to spend more money I guess . . .

Thanks Guys! - Yerrrah Grrreat!!

Grazie

- Now where did I put my shorts - doah! I'll need a mirror for that one!!

Lamont: you don't specify what hardware-assisted setup you're referring to, but it sounds a lot like Canopus DVStorm. If so the people here who are arguing the merits of software-only solutions are missing the fact that some hardware-assisted setups are able to take advantage of increasing processor speeds, so it's unlikely that software-only solutions would ever be able to catch up. Given that, it seems like your best bet for pitching Vegas would be on the basis of its unique strengths (whatever you perceive those to be), and if necessary argue that this could be combined with other solutions for maximum efficiency and flexibility. You say your boss owns a bunch of fancy cars: ask him how he'd feel if he had to pick just one of them and give up the rest?