Not being on the inside and at every trade show I can't say what went down at them. ;)

And now, in 2004 - is Vegas a "finishing" tool or a DAW or a NLE? ;)

P.S - I am being silly here, so nobody get bent out of shape.

re: the inside and/or trade events....I took/take issue, because at all the events I still attend and/or present at, I hear other companies pointing at Vegas and saying "It started as a streaming tool." Publically, that's not true at all. The very first public showing of Vegas was all about DV, Firewire, etc. I hate the perpetuation of unfounded rumors, especially about Vegas...you probably noticed that the 1394 FAQ I pointed to was written BEFORE Vegas ever went public.

re; 2004..
You're being silly, but it's a very valid question. And one I hope Sony keeps addressing in their marketing programs.

Finishing tool? In the DV realm, absolutely. Once the decklink support is there, it will be a great HD/SD finishing tool as well, with the only holdback issue being EDL import, IMO. And since not even AVID can get their EDL tools to completely work, who knows what will happen there. On the audio side, CUI-Bono is my choice.

DAW? I feel it's the best DAW out there at the moment. I wish it had a little more hardware support, ala Yamaha...but that's just cuz I'm a prig. The Mackie's are very, very nice when combined with a good converter. I only miss the joystick for 5.1 built into the Yammies...

NLE? Now THAT'S a silly question.

Analogue capture is not the best way to go. Hook up a digital camera with a firewire output and Vegas should capture fine.

"DAW? I feel it's the best DAW out there at the moment"

While I love Vegas for audio it can't possibly be the best DAW until it supports MIDI recording/playback/editing and tempo changes at a bare minimum. As long as I have to sync Sonar to Vegas for MIDI support Vegas will only by a multi-track audio recorder and video NLE.

All other major player DAW's support Audio AND MIDI, Sonar is even closing in on Vegas' audio functionality. The "Vegas is not a sequencer" statement lacks credibility, all the "real" DAW's support audio + MIDI.

MJ

I'd disagree with both you and SPOT!
From the little I know SF is a much better DAW app than Vegas and MIDI has no place in a DAW.
A DAW is an app for doing audio microsurgery, chopping up many small peices of audio to correct errors either by the talent or in the recording. When you have to do this 100s or 1000s of times in the one project you need an app that understands the workflow.
If I ever wanted to work with MIDI then I'd be looking for a MIDI app, not something that had it tacked onto a multitrack app like Vegas.
Just my two bobs worth but I'm dead against this Swiss army knife approach to everything. Half the justifiable comments about uStuffs apps being bloatware are because they tried to make apps that do everything. I really hope that Sony don't make the same mistake with Vegas.

Bob.

Well I guess your definition of DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) is different than the majority of those that work with music.

Sonar, Steinberg, ProTools etc. are considered DAW's, they are used to create and edit music. True digital audio is in the acronym but the emphasis needs to be on WORKSTATION. MIDI is a HUGE part of all the above.

Sound Forge is a 2 track audio editor, no where near a DAW. If bloat is the issue, Vegas should have never introduced video support.

MJ

This is where the line gets blurry, no doubt. You are right, many tools do support MIDI. But, no one uses them. Not in a professional environment. I'm a Sonar user, that's very well known. But it's not a DAW. Its strength, like Cubase, is in MIDI. I don't like their audio flow. True, ProTools supports MIDI as well, but most professionals don't use those tools, they use Performer, Cubase, or Sonar. ACID doesn't have the greatest MIDI tools either, but that's likely where I'd expect Sony to develop better MIDI tools, not Vegas.
Vegas is an NLE/DAW, and does great at both. MIDI would be the next logical add, but that will upset the video cats. It all comes down to how you wanna work, I guess. I still slave Vegas and Sonar together. I find it easier, faster for me. Sonar is getting there too, but their audio tools (for me) are not as intuitive, fast, nor easy to maneuver. Vegas is quite elegant in that manner for me.
You make an excellent point, just not one I happen to agree with in practice.

"But, no one uses them. Not in a professional environment."

I agree with all you stated but the above. I made my living for the last 30 years on stage and in the studio which should place me in the "pro" (professional) category I believe. Myself and many I worked with used and still do use MIDI. There are aspects MIDI provides in the editing/voice/file size/flexibility area that recorded audio can't compare with.

Vegas is the most elegant editor, Vegas is my audio multi-tracker of choice but Vegas is NOT a DAW, the other apps. mentioned and any hardware Workstation all incorporate MIDI and tempo mapping. I know you know that SPOT. Don't make me list URLs for current "pros" that are scoring in MIDI. I'm not even a softsynth guy, I use external modules myself but MIDI is still a tool "pros" use and will for some time to come.

Grey as it may be I think the most valuable statement you made in this discussion is... "MIDI would be the next logical add, but that will upset the video cats".

By virtue of Vegas' NLE ability I myself have attacked video and love it, the fact remains that in terms of bloat and where Vegas started, video is the bloat.

MJ

Of course, I know that! I score with MIDI as my primary software tool too. But just as I don't do audio in Sonar, I wouldn't be doing midi in Vegas, either. I have logic 5 on PC and locig pro on my mac. I prefer Sonar for most of my MIDI work, unless I'm doing something specific with Reason. And I use Acid, Soundtrack, and even Garageband on rare occasion. And I guess if you look at it from your point of view, my opposing view (tongue in cheek of course) would be that Audio is Cubase' and Sonar's bloat. I use logic or Performer on those rare Protools sessions we do, and use Sonar locked to Vegas for my own personal work. Now that Sonar has OMF support, I open PT less and less. Almost never.
Vegas doesn't have a 2 track editor either. It's not a sound design tool in the truest sense. Neither is Nuendo, Cubase, Sonar, or Logic. So in the truest sense of the description, none of those tools that can't do sound design in fast form means that they aren't DAW either. My point is that the definition is shifting. You yourself say the same thing. Audio in Midi apps started with Musicator. Up til then, it was all Audio software synced/locked to Midi software. Then they started to merge. By your definition, MIDI became part of the DAW. Not by my definition. Video may be a bloat, but the only difference between audio and video in the digital realm is the size of the stream. But there is a big difference between MIDI and Audio/Video in the digital realm. Start throwing in VSTi, WDM synths, etc, and THERE you'll have bloat. (in Vegas) Midi has never been the strong point of any of the Sony/SOFO tools. I think we'll both agree on that. I think it stems in part from the early relationships that SOFO and Cakewalk once had before Cakewalk joined the audio revolution in MIDI apps in Version 4.5.
I'm not commenting at all on whether you're a pro or not. I'm quite sure you are, just as I'm sure I am.
Like I say, you have a valid point. Just not one I agree with. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

.. and I still think Skywatcher should get his mate to ask his questions here . . in person . . . So much knowledge, so much experience . .. gotta be a bonus? .. . ;-)

Grazie

Interesting thread, even though we've got a little away from Skywatcher's original question!

I'm not really concerned about the definition of DAW, but before or after recording voice tracks, maybe some acoustic guitar, bass etc. in Vegas, I often need to add strings, piano, choir, synthesisers, oboe, trombone etc., and to me it's all part of the same process - composing a song - so I'd love to be able to do it all in Vegas.

At present I do all the "other instruments" on a different PC in Logic 5 using some wonderful soft sampled instruments, then play each track across into Vegas.

I've got used to this routine, and it won't be the end of the world if Vegas never "goes midi" but it's always fiddly when, say I want to change a bass phrase - having to open a different program then put that back into Vegas and resynch.

It would be wonderful to have all these tools at your fingertips in one app. The irony is that Logic has Audio tracks too, and could theoretically do the whole job, but it doesn't get near Vegas for audio track work.

This has been a learning experience for me. I learned about 10 new things from this post alone.

My friend is new to the whole Media/Video Capture and NLE game. He has a simple Sony Camera (nothing special) and a Media Center Computer. He needed a NLE and I sold him on Vegas. Actually, Vegas rep is not on the line, once it's up and running, Vegas will prove itself. I just want to help him get up and running.

I built my own PC with an ati card and never, ever had a problem capturing analog. I realized I would be dabbling more into this so I went Digital.

I like the idea to try to and capture thru the rear of the pc. I have had this problem before.

Grazie, old master, I would love to bring him in to the forum and I will...but he is very raw, and have not learned the ways of the "Force" (Forum)!. At this point, the forum may be too "POWERFUL" for him, and turn him to the dark side (FCP or AP).

I will teach him the basic ways of the Jedi Editor (once I get vegas to stop hanging up), then bring him to the ways of the force (Forum).

Skywatcher

Ah, but there are many ways to accept the Force . . . you have . . .

"When the way is stormy much will be made of the Colour of the Sky!"

Know your name . .. ;-)

Grazie

. .. now, where did I put my edition of, " Being A Crusty Old Fart! " ?