Vegas sliding out of my workflow

Robert W wrote on 6/19/2017, 7:00 AM

I've been a Vegas user since the very first release of the original Sonic Foundry Vegas that was really just multitrack audio recording software. From that first release through to Vegas 6.0 it was a pretty rock solid piece of software. From the point I made the jump to Vegas 8 onwards the software has in my opinion become a real trial to use due to an increasing array of bugs and instability.At one point I was complaining about it so much in the forums that I was banned for several years for 'being negative'. When I got to Vegas 12 I decided that I would avoid any further updates and try and phase the application out of my workflow. Despite that, Vegas remains the best application for audio editing, in my opinion. You would be mad to try and using it in anything other than a very basic recording scenario. It lacks basic functionality for a music recording studio application for instance, like midi support, VST instrument support, VST3 support that Reaper and Cubase and Pro-Tools all support out of the box. But if I need to edit a finished master, then I will always do it in Vegas as I think it offers the best graphical solution for creating musical intelligent edits that are hard to hear.

But where Vegas falls down is its unreliability, its bugginess, its constant lagging behind what is happening in terms of standards and codecs. It falls down in the hours you have to wait for a render to complete because it does not support any GPU hardware properly, and because it is based on now ancient Video for Windows architecture, and then the time you have to spend meticulously checking your render for faults because something has quietly fallen over in the render process, and then the time you have to render again and again hoping that pot-luck will eventually reward you with a flawless render.

With each new release you get the promise of some pie in the sky new features, and you can be almost assured that they will be buggy to the point of being useless, while at the same time some basic features will be broken. For instance, I have had problems with Vegas 12 being unable to handle basic compositing and movement of images over a certain size. Seemingly randomly the compositing engine falls over and elements of the composite will flicker in and out. Recently I had a project where I needed to deliver some titles for someone. I had replaced Vegas in my workflow for nearly every element of the production except for the very final stage where I combined the top half of one video with the bottom half of another video. Everything done outside of Vegas went very smoothly. When it came to that final stage with Vegas involved, everything fell over. Each time I rendered I got random image corruption. I disabled the GPU support, I made sure there was tonnes of space in the temporary folders. I ran the machine with every extraneous task disabled (on Vegas 8 it became routine for me to disable Explorer.exe, I found it that fussy). It took several attempts to get the thing to render properly (which happened on the third or so time I completely reset the machine and started again, does that imply strange clean-up problems in the temp folders?) and by the time it did, i had lost several hours, all for a clip lasting a total of 15 seconds, Originally it was supposed to be 30 seconds and hold with a static shot between about 12 seconds and 30 seconds, but I shortened it at some point just to try and get the animated section rendered in some form.

So when I get offers emailed to me for getting Vegas 14 at a discounted price, I barely look at the new features. What I do is come here to see what is broken and to consider installing the trial version to see if the basic bugs that are driving me mad at present are resolved. And when I get here, yes I see lots of reports of broken basic features. The one that particularly catches my eye is the one regarding the removal/missing due to a bug (depending on whose explanation you read) of the Dolby Digital Pro codec. Just to make it clear, without that codec you can not do Dolby Digital properly, and you certainly can not do 5.1 on a Blu Ray. You can not work professionally with the medium without that codec. That is the truth. To the best of my recollection there are a few flags that are only available to configure in the Pro codec, and you need those flags. Not everybody understands how they work, and they are set wrong on a lot of commercial releases, but without them you are not going to be able to configure the render of your mix correctly. Dolby Digital Pro being missing from the software is therefore a major problem. Reading some of the descriptions of the problem in the forum, it appears that some people were resorting to trying to get their surround mixes encoded to Dolby Digital in DVD Architect itself, the result being that the mix was getting collapsed to two tracks of the 5.1 in a messy fashion). In my book this is extremely bad practice. You should not have anything rendering in DVD Architect, be it video or audio. Any video for DVD Architect should be rendered in Vegas Pro using the DVD Architect templates provided as a template, and the sound should be rendered separately as another file in the format intended to go directly onto the disc. If DVD Architect reports it is rendering one of your main media files something has probably gone wrong.

Now if you believe as been suggested in a response from support to one user that the codec was removed by a management decision, that indicates some serious shortsightedness and a disconnection from those of us who are actually trying to use the application in the field. If it was due to a bug that has accidentally made it unavailable, it indicates that the software is not getting road tested sufficiently before release. We are a long way since the initial release of Vegas 14 and for this problem to still remain just ignores the basic fact that many of us use the application for a purpose. We can not wait for months on end for the issue to be resolved. Pretty elementary problems like that should be identified one day and resolved the next. The reality is, those of us that need the feature usually need to get stuff done in a pretty narrow time frame.

I have one project on my schedule that would be useful to use Vegas, and the only reason I was considering using it is because it is a legacy Vegas 6/8 project that I would otherwise need to export wholesale to another editing application using EDL format, and I would have to start from scratch with all of the effects, fades and most likely audio sync. I actually originally bought Vegas 12 solely to work on this project that has been put on the backburner for several years. I needed Vegas 12 to enable the use of a single OFX plugin. However, in the process so many other complications arose, I never actually moved the project beyond basic preparation of the project file and a few failed test renders.

Most of the rest of my work now revolves around Youtube videos with a very short turnaround time. Every time I introduce Vegas to do anything it adds several hours of rendering, even it is just a matter of adding a couple of simple text titles. There was a time when Vegas was pretty much the fastest and most flexible editing solution on the block. Now it is utterly pedestrian. I have actually come up with an alternate workflow using OBS Studio which allows me to produce a shoot almost live, adding prepared and live rendered titles flown directly into the material at the time of filming the talent, so once we signal the cut, I have a file ready to upload pretty much instantly. I would much rather shoot, edit, render and upload, but the critical factor on many of the projects I am working on is time. If you don't get that video up fast then nobody will see it, so it is better to have it seen and have it cut in a live style rather than to fight with Vegas for the perfect cut, and then wait several hours for it to actually render and upload.

So with that in mind, this is what I personally think Magix need to be doing to make Vegas relevant and useful and to justify years of future development:

1, Fix all of the reliability issues and bugs affecting basic functionality. Open out the beta test group to more people and have targets to act upon their reports with minimal turnarounds. Never forget that many of us rely on this software for our bread and butter. When the software stops working, we get hungry.

2, Sort out the speed issues and hardware support. You need to be able to render quickly from reasonable hardware in decent quality. Graphic hardware needs to properly supported, which leads to:

3, Transition the architecture from Video For Windows to whatever is newer (Direct X, surely?). Adopt frameworks that allow wider ranges of codecs to be supported and used effectively.

4, Add features that are going to appeal to a modernising industry where individuals have the capacity to produce both pre-recorded and live content. I think Vegas should certainly be developed to add live broadcast features (potentially in a separate release). With that in mind, live acquisition show be revisited and proper modules that handle this in a way that is relevant to the current era is desirable. An additional module that allows streaming to Youtube, and perhaps even a system that allows you to render a video whilst simultaneously uploading it to Youtube would be extremely desirable.

5, Some well trodden and tested routes to hardware controllers; It always disappointed me that the previous owners, even though they were primarily hardware producers, did not actively market any particular hardware control surface to go with Vegas. It would be nice if there was a goto hardware controller that worked out of the box with Vegas. I have seen today that someone has wrote an application for editing shortcuts for iPad and Android tablets, and I know there is support for certain third party hardware controllers, but it would be handy of there was something marked 'made for Vegas' that you knew would work without any fuss.

I know it is a long post, but I have not dumped my ideas on here for some time, and I will not be suprised if I get a lengthy ban again for doing it. I like the basic audio editing of the software and I will probably always use it for editing stereo and surround masters for as long as I can keep my current license alive, but I am very much wanting to transition away now as i have spent too much of my life and energy fighting frankly stupid bugs that get in the way of the basic business of productivity. I would be absolutely delighted if Magic finally rallied and put out a rock-solid Vegas that fits what we need to today.

Comments

MarkHolmes wrote on 6/19/2017, 12:19 PM

Yep. Everything you said rings true for me. Just spent three days fighting Vegas to get a render to finish without freezing the application.

Until Magix gets the stability issues in Vegas sorted out any new features are a waste of time.

fr0sty wrote on 6/19/2017, 2:09 PM

I've been using vegas since version 4, I've had plenty of issues, but none as bad or frequent than what you explained... especially regarding bad renders. I might get a render glitch in one out of every 100 renders, if that. That said, different hardware configs will react differently.

As for AC3PRo, I can't speak for Magix, but let's try to put ourselves in their shoes based on what we do know from the outside. They just dumped a ton of money into buying Vegas. They realize that Dolby wants even more money to license AC3Pro, which may not have been available or wise to spend at that point in time. Perhaps the decision was made to focus on other bugs (the vast majority of which they did squash) and new features, let a few copies sell, then look into acquiring the proper licensing for codecs. I would also like to see them get ProRes right as well, as the current implementation does not work in final cut pro (at least prores XQ doesn't, not sure about the other modes), making swapping video between the two platforms a pain.

They have made killing bugs a priority and each update has been doing a good job of keeping up with them. The updates are frequent as well, 6 so far since 14 launched and at least one more on the way before 15 drops, which they have also confirmed is under development. The fundamental changes to the architecture of the program, such as the switch to DirectX, etc.. those are things best handled with a new version. You have to keep in mind that Vegas 14 was already in development at Sony when Magix bought it, so this version can't even be considered completely "theirs", so its no wonder that they decided to fix as many bugs as they could before launching a new version that really overhauls things (or at least we can hope it does).

Last changed by fr0sty on 6/19/2017, 2:12 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

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Desktop

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64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

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ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/19/2017, 10:41 PM

If MAGIX can get things sorted with VP15, I'll be more than willing to pay for the upgrade - I've stuck with the last build of VP13 for the basic reason of no real features added I need for the kinds of projects I edit and I want a clean slate so to speak with VP15 if they are making serious changes for the better under the hood.

Mister Mahler wrote on 6/20/2017, 12:43 AM

Yes, basic bugs and issues must be fixed, I also return to this forum only to follow up on the current situation, I don't do any video-editing currently, but had an old version 6 that I upped for version 14, bundeled with Sound Forge, when the "good"offer was there. To tell the trouth I realy think I wasted my money, even the few bucks, Sound Forge is like a ghost town, left several years ago, Vegas is obviously still in the mess Sony left us with. I think its good that Magix came into the picture, all was already dead and in the grave, but Magix got an awfull lot to get done, and prove. As it is now I will not even start up using Vegas, getting it was an mistake, for my small uses I right now use Premiere Elements insteadt. And will end up with the Premiere Full version unless I read about several bugs and unstability being addressed in deept. Untill then no more money going to Magix, not even 50 bucks. I think the users patience with Vegas has already been far to long. Now is the time to deliver !!!!

NickHope wrote on 6/20/2017, 1:30 AM

...1, Fix all of the reliability issues and bugs affecting basic functionality...

What issues exactly? Lots of issues have been fixed since VP12 (and a few introduced, like the removed Dolby Pro codec).

The best way to get an issue fixed is to crystallize it down to a specific issue and report it thoroughly, preferably with a step-by-step method to reproduce the issue. I've reported lots of issues like that in the last year or two. Often the response is slow, which can be discouraging, but I have been impressed by the proportion of those issues that did get fixed in a subsequent update.

...I would also like to see them get ProRes right as well, as the current implementation does not work in final cut pro (at least prores XQ doesn't, not sure about the other modes), making swapping video between the two platforms a pain.

Could you please report that? There's a good chance the developers simply don't know about it.

ushere wrote on 6/20/2017, 1:35 AM

1, Fix all of the reliability issues and bugs affecting basic functionality.

to give magix their due, i think they've been attempting this - but yes,they've a long way to go, epecially concerning gpu and dynamic ram implementation, both of which are a very sorry mess.

2, Sort out the speed issues and hardware support.
3, Transition the architecture from Video For Windows to whatever is newer (Direct X, surely?).

most certainly move on from vfw - and use modern gpu architecture for rendering / preview. i don't think having to be able to edit every codec natively is that important - if it's a problem, then simply transcode. arguements about time involved are just laziness and / or bad planning. if you're a professional you're aware of such problems, if you think otherwise, well...

4, Add features that are going to appeal to a modernising industry where individuals have the capacity to produce both pre-recorded and live content.

let's forget about adding features till we have a stable, reliable base upon which to add them. many features can be added via 3rd part ofx plugins - live production is really for another software, and will simply be bloatware to many users.

5, Some well trodden and tested routes to hardware controllers; I

there's a few already, shuttle, etc., but the incorporation of proper control surfaces, tangent, wave, etc., would be welcome.

i write this as a longtime user of vegas who has moved on to resolve, but would be happy to invest in 15 IF it brings back the magic vegas once had...

NickHope wrote on 6/20/2017, 1:40 AM

Sound Forge is like a ghost town, left several years ago...

You can go to the Sound Forge forum and tell them how you'd like to see it develop, and even apply to be a beta tester.

Yes, basic bugs and issues must be fixed... ...As it is now I will not even start up using Vegas, getting it was an mistake, for my small uses I right now use Premiere Elements insteadt. And will end up with the Premiere Full version unless I read about several bugs and unstability being addressed in deept...

Exactly what issues are concerning you?

Robert W wrote on 6/20/2017, 4:52 AM

1, Fix all of the reliability issues and bugs affecting basic functionality.

to give magix their due, i think they've been attempting this - but yes,they've a long way to go, epecially concerning gpu and dynamic ram implementation, both of which are a very sorry mess.

2, Sort out the speed issues and hardware support.
3, Transition the architecture from Video For Windows to whatever is newer (Direct X, surely?).

most certainly move on from vfw - and use modern gpu architecture for rendering / preview. i don't think having to be able to edit every codec natively is that important - if it's a problem, then simply transcode. arguements about time involved are just laziness and / or bad planning. if you're a professional you're aware of such problems, if you think otherwise, well...

I think that we are well past the stage where constant transcoding in order to just get material into the editor is acceptable. In the current marketplace, and with the Youtube and online streaming being well established, tools need to be able to do their job quickly and efficiently without unnecessary steps. That is essential. Vegas is dead in the water without it because people will just go elsewhere. It is not a big thing to ask for the software to support editing common formats. I recently picked up a piece of software with a 15 year or so legacy, written by a single coder, with its foundations in Video for Windows, but which has transistioned to DirectX 9 and made all the difficult jumps on the way, right through to DirectX 11 and I expect beyond as well. Vegas has limped on while making almost no concessions to progress. Even when they released the 64bit version, they did not provide a wrapper for 32bit plugins making it difficult for most of us that relied on third party plugins to make the move.

4, Add features that are going to appeal to a modernising industry where individuals have the capacity to produce both pre-recorded and live content.

let's forget about adding features till we have a stable, reliable base upon which to add them. many features can be added via 3rd part ofx plugins - live production is really for another software, and will simply be bloatware to many users.

I think the software needs to be made stable first, but I woild argue that there is little point in stablising on the VfW based version (many of the problems are probably caused by limitations of VfW anyway!). They might as well make the jump to DirectX and then make things stable. And it needs new features that are properly road tested and which are reliable.

It is interesting that when I wrote emails complaining about Vegas's problems 8 or 9 years ago, there were a lot of people on the forum lining up to have a go at me for daring to criticize the software and not putting up with the problems. It seemed like they believed that these problems were some sort of necessary penance for the possibility to create stuff that you would get. Most of those people seem to have left now, and it seems there is a general consensus that it is not acceptable for software to be unreliable or obtuse to use. The newest generation of software users simply expect things to work.

I think the main problem that has hampered Vegas is actually money, and I do not believe that is due to failings of the software, that is because the software is horrendously pirated. It is for this basic reason that subscription models are being introduced for key productivity applications by the likes of Adobe and Sony. I have mixed feeling about subscription models. A few years ago I was arguing that a 'per job' subscription model might be useful, because then you could price in the software per project. The flat rate subscription model is something I am not very keen on, but I do not see how it can run parallel with the non-subscription model. But Vegas as an application is suffering because I suspect the vast majority of people that use it are not actually buying it. In reality, even though I have had a few different versions of Vegas, how far does the money I have given them stretch? The minority of us that pay for the software can not be generated a huge amount of development capital. I suspect this is why so much of the development seems pressurized and rushed. The developers are being asked to do an awful lot with not much resouce.

I wonder if the model that Cockos have used with Reaper would work for Vegas, or maybe for Vegas Studio? They effectively issue the product with a 60 day evaluation license, but after that period the software continues to be fully functional with startup reminders that the evaluation period is over. This means that there is no motivation to acquire the software through normal piracy channels, and generally speaking a user has to come through Cockos' site in order to download the software, thus getting the sales pitch on the way and getting the customer to build a relationship with the company. Licences are very cheap, but they seem to get enough money in to fund development and it is one of the leading DAW platforms out there now. There is motivation for frequent updates and the application is very stable. Licences need to be renewed once every two major releases. It might be a marginal thing, but it could result in more overall income. I am asked to pay between £120 to £150 every couple of years or so when a major release of Vegas comes out. I think most of us would still do that and would be happier to do it if there have been a lot of revisions in between, and if we felt that a share of the market that was previously lost to piracy was being monetized in some way.

 

 

D7K wrote on 6/20/2017, 1:21 PM

Just move on to something else, why waste your time when you are not happy with a product? I like Vegas.I often just write posts like this off to trolling. Seriously why post here when you can be spending your time working with software that meets your needs. Software is too cheap to worry about switching. given the cost of cameras, glass, and studio equipment why not find the one that does what you need. Time is money so find something that maximizes your time and productivity. Everyone has different work flows and every NLE seems better suited for somethings than others. Off to do something productive.

ItsHyperComplicated wrote on 6/20/2017, 8:46 PM

I've not only been a Vegas+Sound Forge+CD/DVD Architect user since Sonic Foundry days, but also a selected pre-beta tester of Vegas Pro when Sony was still around as the developer. My only comment back then was that you should fix all the bugs before you introduce any new feature or you'll just f*** up the stability even more.

I guess the devs didn't dig what I had to say nor did they listen and now we're here. Sorry, I tried my best.

By the way, my old Vegas Pro 13 works just fine, however the latest build of VP14 (252) crashes on startup (Win7/64bit), the very same bug that a lot of people are trying to overcome - thus, I can't use the software at all anymore. Too bad, since VP14 actually looked pretty promising when I got it to start a while back (good deinterlacing in preview etc).

So, yep, FIX THE BUGS. Please. Thanks.

 

 

NickHope wrote on 6/21/2017, 12:03 AM
... the latest build of VP14 (252) crashes on startup (Win7/64bit)...

Have you tried troubleshooting it to determine the cause? Have you reported it?

NickHope wrote on 6/21/2017, 12:06 AM

NOTE TO ALL: Vague complaints on this forum do not get bugs fixed.

Robert W wrote on 6/21/2017, 3:40 AM

Just move on to something else, why waste your time when you are not happy with a product? I like Vegas.I often just write posts like this off to trolling. Seriously why post here whi en you can be spending your time working with software that meets your needs. Software is too cheap to worry about switching. given the cost of cameras, glass, and studio equipment why not find the one that does what you need. Time is money so find something that maximizes your time and productivity. Everyone has different work flows and every NLE seems better suited for somethings than others. Off to do something productive.


I think it is more than obvious from the constructive comments I have offered on the software that this is not a trolling thread. I would love to just move on from the software, but as I made perfectly clear from my original post, there are some things I still use it for in my workflow. The point of my post was that Vegas is sliding out of my workflow, and I just said what was needed to make it move back in to my workflow. There used to be a lot more people like you in this forum who would jump on people who were critical of the software, but now there are a lot less, and the software has not really got any better. I suspect many of those who so unfairly and blindly criticised those of us who were desperately trying to get the software to do things that it suddenly decided it was not longer going to do, have themselves hit the wall at some point and just given up.

A quick browse through this forum shows that there are more bug complaints than ever. it is not the way forward to blame users for reporting shortcomings in software and offering constructive criticism on the application. The people who point out bugs and shortcomings are a precious resource. I will happily report any bugs I spot, but the last time I did (with random GUI hangs in 8.0c, if I remember correctly) I was met with a flat refusal to acknowledge the problem and was told the cause was a hardware issue with my machine, even though it plainly was not and was not reproducible on any past version of the software including 8.0a, which I reverted to. Shortly afterwards I was advised by the mods, similar to your suggestion, that I should just give up and use different software, and then I was banned from the forum for several years. Just what you need when you are up to your elbows in projects that you can't render, you are wanting to get paid and the wolf is scratching at the door. Make the software reliable, make it do what you advertise it can do, and don't go switching off/disabling/breaking key features without warning between releases and then you have a package that professionals can rely upon and start to build trust in again.

NickHope wrote on 6/21/2017, 5:20 AM
...A quick browse through this forum shows that there are more bug complaints than ever...

Partly because one no longer needs to be a registered user to be a member of the forum. So there are more people posting than in SCS days and the general level of Vegas knowledge and computer literacy has dropped.

ItsHyperComplicated wrote on 9/6/2017, 7:50 AM
... the latest build of VP14 (252) crashes on startup (Win7/64bit)...

Have you tried troubleshooting it to determine the cause? Have you reported it?

Yes, I've reported all bugs I've encountered, multiple times, with explanations both during Sony days and now with Magix.

Just tried MAGIX's Vegas Pro 14 Build 270 aaaand .... crashes on startup, like always, this time when loading DirectX plugins because of KERNELBASE.dll. A bit of googling, and apparently that bug has been around since VP10, well, luckily my Sony Vegas Pro 13 still works so ...