Vegas Tool? DV-RACK . . .

John_Cline wrote on 7/24/2004, 2:43 PM

DV Rack is PERFECT for my style of direct-to-disk via laptop computer location recording. For me, it is the most exciting piece of software I have seen is a long, long time. I can't see much use for it in post, but in the field, it will be unbelievably useful. For one thing, I can quit hauling around a waveform monitor and a vectorscope.

John

ken c wrote on 7/24/2004, 3:05 PM

Hey I got a very intelligent answer from one of the folks (Jodie, thanks!) on the SM board... it appears that DV rack will correctly show, on the laptop monitor, what the video signal will subsequently look like on a tv, in realtime, as you're recording your original source ... so that's excellent.

To quote her reply, in part...
"DVRack has a Field Monitor that functions exactly like the Sony PDUs. Want to see what it will look like on a computer monitor? Hit the underscan. On a TV? Overscan. Safe areas? Hit the button. Go into the menu, if you want, and define the safe areas."

Apparently she's been beta testing it, and she's very video-knowledgeable. Looking forward to getting my hands on a copy in a few weeks, will let you know about it. If it's anything as cool as the ultra key software is, it'll be a very useful production tool.

here's a link to the scopes info page:
http://www.seriousmagic.com/dvrscopes.cfm?crntPage=3
and the monitoring part:
http://www.seriousmagic.com/dvrmonitoring.cfm?crntPage=2

Ken

farss wrote on 7/24/2004, 3:50 PM

With a tape in the camera and this box connected to the cameras firewire port you are monitoring exactly what is being recorded to tape. As an added bonus you CAN also record to disk.
This is better in many ways (but not all) than connecting a field monitor to the camera.
You are seeing the video after the camera's encoders, unless you've got a field monitor with firewire in then the monitor is showing you the video prior to the DV25 compression. Yes, you'll most likely be monitoring on an LCD screen and that may not be to your liking.

At the same time with scopes you get a very good idea of how your signal is, you can easily see if the blacks are crushed or the highlights are being blown out.

Once your video hits Vegas then if you've got many of the problems this unit can help you prevent it's too late. So I'd say it could be money well spent. But if you only shoot in a controlled environment that you're familiar with then it maybe of little use.

For a lot of the work that I do it'll be a blessing, I've been chasing some scopes for ages. But they're big and new ones are dman expensive so this could be am ideal solution.

But there's plenty of people for whom this unit will have no relevance, I just cannot see you taking it with you to shoot a wedding!

Bob.

Jay Gladwell wrote on 7/24/2004, 7:17 PM

... it appears that DV rack will correctly show, on the laptop monitor, what the video signal will subsequently look like on a tv, in realtime...

It may provide an image on a laptop monitor, it may do it in real time on a laptop monitor, but I cannot for the life of me imagine that it will "correctly show... what the video signal will subsequently look like on a tv..." on a laptop monitor. As Bob, I think it was, said earlier, you can get close, but it will not be broadcast (NTSC) accurate, unless they are saying that you must rely on the scopes alone to accomplish that. That doesn't seem to be clear from their quote, one way or another. Perhaps their reference to "video signal" is the operative phrase here.

Jay

Grazie wrote on 7/25/2004, 12:01 AM

Bob, "I just cannot see you taking it with you to shoot a wedding!" yeah .. I do mix lit and arts events with complex/uncontrolled lighting . . . lots of changes and movement .. audio is all over the place .. interviews and external shots of buildings and venues . . having a laptop with a check being run might be cool! However, if I aint got it right now - well I'm better anyway - I might as well do something else for a living!

We will see what Spot's review says about it, but I'm thinking that which I've shot is that which I'm gonna have to live with - good or bad. I suppose having this s/w solution could assist to confirm or deny that which I was shooting and use once for one scenario and reuse for the next scenario. Perhaps this is for the story filmmaker who needs to be "assured" by numbers and graphics ( scopes ) that he or she is in the Ball Park - yeah?

Bob, I think the "Wedding" environment analogy has helped to "focus" - pun here, laugh! - my "Me Want!" desire more fundamentally than I thought - well actually, I hadn't really thought this through. And Jay's comments, pointing me towards the need to have substantial camera craft/skills - he didn't SAY this, but intimated it - will and should be my guide here .. yeah? Oh, and apart from anything else, it IS another piece of clever s/w that could lead me astray .. . When's the review coming?

As always, the most interesting and entertaining posts on this forum happen when we responsibly wander "around" the point and discuss stuff that maybe needed to be said so we can get a fuller, broader and as wide-angled picture as possible . . . thanks Guys and Gals!

Best regards

Grazie

rmack350 wrote on 7/25/2004, 12:14 AM

If you're shooting all-day events or seminars then DV Rack will pay for itself pretty quickly. If you've got 3 cameras and 18 hours of tape from a day's events and you captured it all as you were shooting then you'll save days of capture time after the shoot. Keep in mind that it can be controlled by the camera trigger and you could record through your laptop to a 250 GB drive.

It's not useful for run and gun shoots but fairly reasonable for fixed shooting postions.

Cabling would be a problem. How long can a 1394 run be? And do the cables lock into the sockets? No they don't, not without a strain relief.

Rob Mack

Grazie wrote on 7/25/2004, 12:18 AM

Rob, yer wanna email with any on-site real World views of what you do? THIS could be interesting for me. My REAL fear is another piece of kit to go south - yeah? BUT if you are saying that there are definate positives to this then maybe just maybe .. I'm in the frame for reviewing a small portable HD. Maybe using this inconjunction maybe a goer .. wanna email? Some pics of how you setup will be a neat a start - yeah? A website with some temporary pictures of your setup?

TIA,

Grazie

busterkeaton wrote on 7/25/2004, 12:57 AM

Serious Magic does seem to be a company worthy of their name.

Grazie wrote on 7/25/2004, 1:01 AM

eh? .. Come back, Good Buddy? .. . Graze

FuTz wrote on 7/25/2004, 6:15 AM

But aren't there NTSC compliant monitors out there? I asked about this a few time ago and somebody told me they were out but expensive.
I asked because since my ext. monitor via IEEE1394 thru cam never worked properly with my (now old) setup ,I wanted to simply buy a Parehlia (Matrox, triple head) and plug a NTSC computer monitor as a 3rd screen to get my colors corrected next time when I upgrade my system...

Stephanb wrote on 7/26/2004, 5:01 PM

DV RACK will record a clip when you either hit RECORD on your camera or when you hit record on the user interface of DV RACK. <Since DV RACK is always monitoring the DV signal (whether or not you are rolling tape), it allows a user to setup a pre-roll.

For archival purposes, you could either use the tape or the content of the HD.

For editing, you could choose to go back to the tape and digitize your clips or import those clips into your editor.

Even if you elect to digitize from tape, DV RACK will most importantly allow you to instantly review what you shot on the HD to make sure you got the shot you wanted without the need to mess with the tape.

farss wrote on 7/26/2004, 5:09 PM

Gazie,
Better cameras do provide a lot of assistance to the cameraman, thing like Zebra Patterns and guideframes if you know how to use them that is, can help no end.
Also pro cameras have lots of other tweaks like skind detail, black knee etc that make your video look that much better.
This isn't something just for full on shoots either. I know of a few guys who specialise in Indian Weddings. Now these are a real problem shoot, very dark skin is a problem in most cameras, all you get to see are teeth and eyes, not very flattering. Dial in some black knee solves the problem. But apart from a couple of the prosumer cameras from Panny you need fairly expense cameras to get those features. Because of that these guys shoot with old SP cameras, bulky things but they get the shots they need with them.

Bob.

HPV wrote on 7/26/2004, 7:08 PM

One can use VidCap to capture live ohci video to HD. Heck, you can even arm audio tracks in Vegas and get multi track audio at the same time. For video signal testing in the field, you could capture short clips and check with Vegas scopes. This isn't as slick as RT scopes, but just wanted to let people know they can do most of DV-Rack does (no audio tools) with software they already have. Gotta love that.
The comment about a video card "tv output" being used to get a true interlaced field monitor signal can be done. A piece of software called "tv-tool" lets you use some Nvidia card tv outputs at a full 720x480i. I've compared the signal quality to ohci output with a Sony PVM monitor and they are the same. Hugh difference from the stock NVidia driver output quality, plus it's interlaced. Don't know if DV-Rack would work with this setup or not. In Vegas, it's damn close to perfect when you use the preview window and turn off the bottom status bar and the top tool bar.
BTW, Serious Magic has some people that used to be with NewTek. Anybody doing video for awhile will know that the Video Toaster was the first "serious magic" video gear that people could afford. Still have a few that get used from time to time for live productions.

Cheers,
Craig H.

farss wrote on 7/26/2004, 7:26 PM

I do many hours of capturing from substandard sources that I tweak via a procamp, I've been after a set of scopes but the one I'd find most useful (Histogram) is only available on modern scopes that cost heaps so this box of tricks could not only save me buckets of cash but heaps of space as well.
I'm certainly NOT saying it's for everyone but for those who could use it I think it's a godsend.

Bob.

jodier wrote on 7/26/2004, 11:32 PM

Hi All,

I was looking for thoughts on batch encoding in VV5 and stumbled upon this thread. I'm a long-time Vegas user (2.0), read regularly, and feel like I "know" some of you, so I wanted to be polite and DeLurk. ;)

By way of Introduction/delurk, my name is Jodie Reynolds and I do a lot of production and post-production in my role at Adflix }dot{ com.

I'm a Beta Tester on the DV Rack project, but otherwise unassociated with Serious Magic (outside of being a satisfied customer and, after a handfull of Betas, still drooling over DV Rack).

I wrote Serious Magic and asked they release me from any NDA that may exist in the Beta program so that I could speak freely about DV Rack. They agreed.

So if no one minds, I'd like to address some of the things I see in the thread here. I'd like to back them up with screenshots and video where appropriate. Things like true-picture from an LCD, reliance on Tape (hey - I hear you!!! Count me in [with a caveat or two]), non-DV/25 sources, and my planned run-and-gun solution.

I just wanted to post an intro first, note that I'd read the thread contents, and also mention that I'm not with Serious Magic. They don't know I'm here specifically, and other than a "go ahead" for talking about DV Rack - they haven't approved anything I'm likely to say. Even the negative like "I wish I could pull 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4 as has been observed" and "I can see true color for the FIRST TIME on an LCD!!! - here's how! [but please hold your head just right]" Not faults in DV Rack but facts of life I've observed shooting fifty plus hours in the field with DV Rack...

So - any major objections to the forum newbie jumping in and showing some Beta stuff?

farss wrote on 7/26/2004, 11:37 PM

Can't speak for everyone obviously but I'd sure be interested!
Their web site does give a fair bit of info on the product but probably leaves a few questions unanswered.
First one I have may seem pretty lame but they don't specifically state if this thing will work with PAL. I know it'd have to pretty dumb if it didn't but I've learned not to assume anything!

Bob.

PS, only problem you may face is there's no way to put images on this site.

Grazie wrote on 7/26/2004, 11:46 PM

Bob, not lame, " . .if this thing will work with PAL. " . .very good point .. Same company that is just about to produce a PAL version of their Visual Communicator, which I think I asked about when I saw this s/w about 8 or 10 months back? .. Not lame Bob . ..

Grazie

jodier wrote on 7/26/2004, 11:47 PM

Hi Bob,

Thanks!

I'll just post uri back to a photo-gallery. I work for a tier-1 CDN/ISP, so I have all the web space, streaming video, and bandwidth "in the world".

Today, I don't believe it natively supports PAL. However, they've historically supported PAL very soon after NTSC release. I've been using their stuff from VC Web forward. There's a lot of PAL out there and they seem to jump straight in. I've never gotten them to take Mesecam seriously though. :D

jodier wrote on 7/26/2004, 11:51 PM

Grazie,

They've had functionality for PAL but not content. Fortunately, DV Rack isn't content-based. I can say I've seen PAL in Ultra, lacking only in the sample clips, so they're definitely serious about it.

farss wrote on 7/26/2004, 11:59 PM

Not supporting 'Le PAL' I can forgive but PAL!
Kind of cuts their market down a lot, I mean we're the only ones who've got a system good enough to make the effort worthwhile.

OK, I'll stop stirring now.

But man, oh man am I glad I asked. My boss was only a few mouse clicks away from ordering this thing, the $100 discount had him salivating.

Not supporting both PAL and NTSC is really, really silly. No I don't mean having a PAL and an NTSC version, I mean being able to switch between them. One of the biggest heart stoppers on both sides of the Atlantic and down here is doing conversions and who can afford to have both a PAL and an NTSC monitor to check the results?

All I can say is the rabbit is half baked :)

Grazie wrote on 7/26/2004, 11:59 PM

Thank you Jodier. Please explain and the relevance of your, "Fortunately, DV Rack isn't content-based." . . sorry, I don't understand the context of the phrase.

Cheers,

Grazie

jodier wrote on 7/27/2004, 12:17 AM

I know they've offered their PAL users a direct "here you go" - even when they've purchased on the limited-time discounts..

But I can't speak for them. Drop a note to customersupport}at{seriousmagic.com - they're good folk from my few problems. I'll go put my PAL deck and monitor on it here shortly. I'm upstairs in the studio shooting re: LCD color, to give a walk through of how that works at the moment. ;-)

Grazie wrote on 7/27/2004, 1:15 AM

Sorry, friend, I still don't understand your commments about the content . . . . ;-(

Grazie

jodier wrote on 7/27/2004, 1:33 AM

Prescript: I sent email over to customersupport and the official word is that: "DV Rack will support both PAL and NTSC out of the gate.
Ultra has started shipping with PAL, and Ultra users that bought the NTSC version by mistake should contact tech support for the PAL
version" That's a happy ending for some of us! (or beginning for DV Rack)

Without further OT commentary...

Calibrating an LCD with DV Rack

"You can't calibrate a consumer LCD monitor! You don't have the controls!" "They all run nasty hot!"

All true. What I believe Serious Magic has done with DV Rack is to dodge that bullet and give us an actual calibrated LCD.

How?

DV Rack doesn't try to calibrate the monitor. Arf?

They calibrate their Video Overlay. The space where the camera's output lives.

You see, they have total control over that playground. As much control as you have pixel depth.

So what they've done is to duplicate a monitor like the Sony or JVC Field Monitor (Sony pvm) in the overlay.

This virtual monitor functions exactly like an analog monitor. So you can set it up to bars and adjust the phase, contrast, brightness,
chroma, etc.

Now, as we all know, setting an analog monitor up for bars goes something like:

Turn on the bars, crank down the chroma so we're in gray.

Turn the contrast dial until we can distinguish all seven shades of gray.

Turn the brightness dial until our 7.5 IRE and 11.5IRE just show some difference, but 3.5 IRE still shows "black".

Now, we need to turn on our virtual blue-gun-only.

You'll notice that the first blue bar has black at the bottom and the far right has bright blue. Those are unmatched bars.

Turn the Chroma knob until both the top and bottom of the first and last bar show solid blue that is indistinguishable in each section.

Turn the Phase knob until the top and bottom of the center bars match up. Chroma Outside, Phase Inside.

http://www.sonotthedrama.net/dvrack-pvm-setup/blue-gun-matched.jpg

Turn off the blue-gun-only and have a look:

http://www.sonotthedrama.net/dvrack-pvm-setup/proper-bars.jpg

Cyan under Magenta and Magenta under Cyan. Both Cyans and both Magentas match each other.

We're done!

By the very definition of NTSC and "Setting a monitor up to bars" - if all the above are true, then the color you observe is true.
The rest of the display can stay ugly and hot and have blown-out contrast and brightness. The area inside the "virtual monitor" is _true_.

HOWEVER: With LCD monitors, especially the really inexpensive ones, the angle of incidence of viewing changes the way the color looks.
That's just a fact of LCDs. So my advice would be to try to keep your angle fairly static (+- 15deg is typical), and if you have to get up and
move around, then you should probably recalibrate to the new angle.

Just like white balance - _ALWAYS_ recalibrate whenever your light changes outside of the subtle "reasonable".

So as we can see here, although it's really magic, you _can_ get true color from a portion of your LCD. The portion that has the video overlay,
and therefore, the important part.

For those interested, the monitor on the left is a Sony PVM-8044Q, the camera is a DVCPro50 feeding a Canopus ADVC100 over sVideo to convert to FW/1394,
and the lighting is apparent in the picture below.

So - does that all make sense? If not - fire away!

Here's the setup:

http://www.sonotthedrama.net/dvrack-pvm-setup/stage.jpg

http://www.sonotthedrama.net/dvrack-pvm-setup/dvcpro50.jpg