Desk-- I'm in your camp on this one, but it is ALWAYS a touchy subject!

I own both Vegas 2.0 & Avid Xpress 3.0 (thank GOD for educational pricing), and I find Avid very, very clunky & difficult to work with. Vegas, on the other hand, really is smooth and efficient. I could arrange a piece in an hour in Vegas, which would cost me a couple of days in Xpress... All that Avid is supposed to be, Vegas is.

Which is not to say that Avid is all bad, however. Avid has better intigration with After Effects, for example. Rumor has it that the Xpress 3.5 color correction is really quite good (hint, hint SoFo!). And Avid (although certainly not Xpress) is the industry standard... I'm not going to be able to further my career, I'm afraid, by knowing the ins and outs of Vegas, I'm afraid. And THAT'S a problem.

To be honest with you-- if Vegas and Xpress were at the exact same price point... Vegas is STILL the winner, hands down. If you consider that Xpress will run you more than a grand more than Vegas... then it's not even a choice at al.

David, I understand the personal problem you brought to the surface in regards to Avid been an industrial standard. This will be shared with many potential V.V. editors everywhere It is no doubt too late and indeed a shame that this fact unfortunately, can not be changed............unless we built a strong marketing force, headed possibly by yourself.........but you'd have to change your first name, David.

you will further your career more by leading than following - I am sure somebody famous said that???

Paul White said it, sounds good to me.

However, it's impossible to forget AVID XDV 3.5 has the feature set professionals require hence, without these features, regardless of how good the SoFo marketing department is, when professionals start down their check list and VV3 comes up short, then VV3 simply doesn't make the cut. It has nothing to do with leading or following as an editor.

SoFo is aware of these shortcomings and as a business matter will surely be addressing these issues - or - remain uncompetitive. As a publicly traded company beholden to their stockholders with something akin to a fiduciary responsibility, I have confidence they keep an eye on their stock price and are thus keenly aware it reflects the market's opinion of its prospects. Vegas sales (according to their most recent 10-Q) has a positive impact on the bottom line, so they'll surely be beefing it up. It's unfortunate SOFO is trading under $1.00/share presently, but some modifications ot their software which creates buzz amongst professionals can do nothing but aid it's futures.

Finally, it's a cause and effect relationship which dictates that anybody who works in the AVID world professionally (i.e. as an editor hired by the job and thus required to know the AVID way) isn't a realistic VV3 prospect.

VV's prospects are the thousands upon thousands of Premier and Final Cut Pro owners along with others (like myself) who are not tied to AVID. Interestingly enough, my friend and mentor Victor Milt, has a Media Composer for sale as he's switching to VV. Bodes well for SOFO futures.

For example, the issue of RS-422 has only attracted attention from a handful of users here on this forum, myself, Victor Milt, and MartyH . . . can it be that we are the only ones interested in integrating VV with video-industry standards and everybody else is a camcorder user?

I don't mean this in a disparaging manner, but have you seen how Apple and Sony are trumpeting the fact Sodebergh uses their stuff for "Full Frontal"? How many wannabes lust for FCP as a result of this? It's is how you create buzz - and sell loads of product.

This is not a stock recommendation, but I'm considering buy some SOFO because I think the crew at SoFo is aware of these issues and has a plan. If VV ever gets some buzz, VV sales (and hence SOFO shares) could shoot through the roof (plus I get what I need as an editor :>)

This reminds me of the heady old days of WordPerfect strangling all possibilities of accomplishing anything useful on one's computer. It was an AWFUL program. It was tremendously difficult to learn and use. Sure, it may have been extrememely powerful, but what did that matter if you couldn't figure out how to format your document and send it to the printer? The problem was, everyone used WordPerfect. Colleges used it to prepare people for it out in the workplace. Businesses used it because that's what all the college grads had been using. Everyone suffered mightily but no one was willing to change. Good grief, even the "toy" word processors MicroStar and PC-Write were fantastically better and easier to use. But no one used them because ... no one used them. Thank goodness those horrid days are over and the affordable, usable, functional underdog finally came out on top after people realized it's superiority and enough people adopted it for it to gain recognition and acceptance.

SonicFoundry is on it's way with Vegas. It will get there someday. We just have to do our best to keep pushing it little by little.

ps. and who was the underdog i referred to above? None other than Microsoft Word. My, how ominous!

(cutting and pasting from two posts here... please forgive me if it seems incoherent!)

--you will further your career more by leading than following - I am sure somebody famous said that???

Paul... this is true. But there IS trouble in paradise. You have to be an insider before you can change the system. Once I finish school, move out of my crappy PBS engineering job and go for the first big gig... is telling them that I know Vegas going to help get me that gig? Probably not. In fact, if I were a betting man, I'd say that having worked with the budget version of Avid is going to get me further, to be honest with you. It's the standard. It's a recognized name.
Although I believe in change, and I believe in 'leading'... I also believe that I have to get the job, too. But believe me, I trumpet the merits of Vegas to EVERYONE that will listen. I think that I've managed a couple of converts, too.

---However, it's impossible to forget AVID XDV 3.5 has the feature set professionals require hence, without these features, regardless of how good the SoFo marketing department is, when professionals start down their check list and VV3 comes up short, then VV3 simply doesn't make the cut. It has nothing to do with leading or following as an editor.

John, and I'm trusting that you've had a bit more experience than myself (as I said, I'm still a student), I'd love to know what (outside of real EDL export) shortcomings you see with Vegas vs. Xpress. I have to admit, I am hard pressed to find anything that I can't do in Vegas, and can't do faster, at that.

---Finally, it's a cause and effect relationship which dictates that anybody who works in the AVID world professionally (i.e. as an editor hired by the job and thus required to know the AVID way) isn't a realistic VV3 prospect.

And again, therein lies the problem that I'm facing. I'm forced to work cross platform, as that's what's required. It is not, of course, as simple as 'an NLE is an NLE.'

---For example, the issue of RS-422 has only attracted attention from a handful of users here on this forum, myself, Victor Milt, and MartyH . . . can it be that we are the only ones interested in integrating VV with video-industry standards and everybody else is a camcorder user?

Ahhhh... now THAT'S the real question... and I think that the answer is, unfortunately, yes. Most people ARE just shooting with miniDV, and anything else is too far beyond their budget. Vegas is aimed squarely at the prosumer market. Nobody is going to take a $600 editor seriously... at least, not anyone from the Avid/Media 100 school of thought. But, with any luck, the model will shift. All these kids editing movies at home are going to end up working in television, film, whatever. They will be open to the change.
Do I hope that SoFo moves Vegas in a more 'professional' direction? I sure do. But I also think that will come with a larger price tag. And I would HATE to see Joe Camcorder robbed of such a great piece of software!

---I don't mean this in a disparaging manner, but have you seen how Apple and Sony are trumpeting the fact Sodebergh uses their stuff for "Full Frontal"? How many wannabes lust for FCP as a result of this? It's is how you create buzz - and sell loads of product.

This is true... they have been MOST shameless! I can't think of a video-type magazine I've opened in six months that didn't have that ad on the inside cover. If I read 'It would take me 3 movies to unlock the full potential of FCP' (slight paraphrasing) again, then I'm going to vomit.
Do I think that Vegas is being mis-marketed? Nope. I barely see it marketed at all...
But that's a thought for another thread.

David.

Speaking as a newcomer to V.V. and basically editing generally, although I have spent many, many hours in Avid edit suites as a director. I was convinced that clocks in these suites ran faster than outside. We all know that this process always takes longer than expected even with the most careful planning and preparation. So anything which makes the editor's job easier is beneficial both for him and his client. I just wonder if V.V. would have saved me a few quid (dollars).

I just counted them. I have 37 major and several minor programs on my computer. I have 3 different spreadsheets, 3 word processors, and 5 databases. I have 4 video programs (though I almost always use VV), and so on and so on. That is NOT counting anything I have a HOME! That is a different batch.

Why can't you use AVID and VV, whenever you choose. I don't understand? You can learn more than one way to bake a potato. If you are busy enough to have the money to buy the Avids of the world, you have enough to want to take the faster route sometimes. Use VV then. If time proves me right, you will do just fine in both.

As far as the price increasing just to put new features in a program, History proves that the opposite is true. As people buy VV and finance more R&D, more features will appear, more upgrades will be sold, more full packages will be sold, and my students will be buying them. I actually expect very little in the way of price increases, but a LOT in the way of new and valuable features over time.

WordPerfect didn't suffer from a lack of features, just a lack of knowledge when they started. They introduced all the gimmicks, everyone else rethought it, and did it better. Word was NOT where it is today when it started. it was pitiful in its lack of features. Now, it is FULL of them. So much so that it is estimated that 90% of the users use less than 5% of the features regularly.

If history holds true with NLEs, in general, and Vegas Video in particular, expect VV to bloom in the spring. MANY new things are on the way. My only prayer is that SF gives it more thought than MS did for Word. As an experienced user of just about every word porcessor that ever came along, in my humble opinion, WORD is FEATURE BOUND. It is CLOGGED and hard to use as a result.

SF, PLEASE, do it slowly and with great thought. We are here behind you, and that is where we want to stay. But, not TOO slowly ;)

wcoxe1: i certainly agree with you on not wanting too many features. I have Office 97 installed on my computer because that was the minimum level we needed to communicate with other business partners. But when i'm doing internal communication i still crank up Word 6 because it has everything i need and runs much faster and it just plain doesn't get in my way. For the life of me, i can't figure out how to get Word 97 to STOP auto-capitalizing the word "i" and auto-numbering bullet points. I'm sure it's in there somewhere, but i can't be bothered to spend more than what time i've already spent on the problem. There is definately a point at which a piece of software outgrows it's usefulness and moves on into turgidness.