Vegas vs. Catalyst review


Jamon wrote on 12/16/2015, 4:48 PM

A +1 for Catalyst vs. Vegas. I don't know if Vegas will ever be updated again, but it was last updated 6 months ago, and Catalyst has had multiple updates since then.
Jamon wrote on 12/17/2015, 12:31 AM
Have the newest versions of Vegas and Catalyst been benchmarked to compare performance between AMD and Nvidia GPU? Anyone want to test what it takes to overload their Catalyst Edit preview?
Jamon wrote on 12/17/2015, 10:05 PM
Déjà vu. I looked back at an old post where I was obsessively testing Vegas Pro 11 to see if I should upgrade to it instead of 10, because 10 was unstable for me, but 9 was more stable. Then I see "ushere" replying, much like now. I'd completely forgotten about testing previous versions, and that I think I was even beta testing because I remember a hidden Vegas Pro beta forum on here.

I looked at my software orders, and it goes, 8, 9, ... 12. So obviously I found that both 10 and 11 were too buggy for me. But I needed 12 because I got new cameras that recorded to newer formats unsupported by 9. But 12 still crashes, and 13 trial seemed slower FPS for preview.

So I think maybe the last good version of Vegas for me was 6 years ago? I seem to recall something happening around one of those versions where everyone was saying how unstable it was. Maybe that was 10, but like I said, I don't remember much.

"Leee" had a funny comment in the previous thread, "while I appreciate your efforts, testing and reporting (I'm sure a lot of us do), I can't help but see the irony in this situation: A customer trying to fix a bug in a piece of software (on his own time) that he's PAID a company to design, test and deliver in working order."

:D And here I am yet again, spending time trying to pinpoint the flaws in Catalyst that make it not fully usable for me. If it and Vegas 13 just worked, I'd simply have bought the upgrades and never would've posted anything. But I'd like to have a video tool available so I have the option of editing some video if I want, and the ones I'd like to use don't really work without feeling like when you need to push-start your car and restart it in traffic when it happens to stall.

When I read some comments about what it's like to work at SCS, the main points that stood out were lack of communication and interaction between departments, and a chaotic code base. I can't help but think there must be smart people working there, and the problem of unstable software is systemic, an unavoidable symptom of something wrong in the organizational structure and company culture.

I don't know. But it's interesting how the first Sonic Foundry software was running on computers with a few hundred MHz processors or less. That's like, a fraction of mobile phone power today? Yet in those times there kept being new releases of multimedia software that pushed boundaries, and did it with slow hardware.

Today I feel like I have a supercomputer in comparison, and the GUI in Catalyst is sometimes just as slow, or slower. I think it's using Qt 5 to be cross compatible with OS X and Windows. I wonder then if it can ever be as quickly responsive as Vegas in the frontend.

It's funny because mobile media production is pretty fast. Maybe the problem is I'm not letting go of the PC era. If I just stick to making Vine loops with my pocket device, everything happens faster and with less trouble. You get instant feedback from strangers too; little hearts and thumbs up. Post something here and it might be hours or days before you see signs of life.

Strange times to be a PC person.
OldSmoke wrote on 12/17/2015, 11:13 PM
Maybe a newer system would be more stable for you. 11 is where the GPU acceleration started and I think where SCS used a new .Net version.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Jamon wrote on 12/18/2015, 12:42 AM
Probably. I bet if someone uses the same hardware SCS developers do it's more stable. But then it's kind of a lottery if it's hardware related. I'm not the only one for whom SCS software crashes.
My GPU was only released a couple months ago.
Maybe I'll try a Xeon D instead of this E3.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 12/18/2015, 6:31 AM
> "I bet if someone uses the same hardware SCS developers do it's more stable."

That's one of the reasons I moved to the Mac. There is an extremely high probably that the FCP X developers are using the *exact* same Mac Pro that their customers use. It only comes with 4 CPU and 3 GPU choices, (FirePro D300, D500, D700) vs. the 1000's of CPU/GPU combinations that SCS has to deal with. Even the older Mac Pros only had 2 or 3 GPU choices.

There is something to be said for limiting hardware choice to gain stability. This is why Avid certifies their hardware and if you're not using what they recommend they won't support you. It's also why Adobe ships with a config file that lists the GPU's they support and if your GPU is not on the list they won't use it (of course people hack the list but they do so knowingly).

It would be nice if SCS did something similar.

OldSmoke wrote on 12/18/2015, 6:59 AM
[I]My GPU was only released a couple months ago.
Maybe I'll try a Xeon D instead of this E3.[/I]

Maybe your GPU was only released three month ago but it is certainly not a good choice for Vegas Pro nor is your Xeon.

And, you are not the only one for whom VP crashes but you are also not the only one who has hardware that is isn't well supported by VP.

There are maybe a hundred threads with a over thousands of posts related to hardware suitable for VP. Many have changed theirs with recommendations by this forum and have reported better stability and better performance.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Jamon wrote on 12/18/2015, 10:47 AM
People recommend old Radeon. It'd be silly for me to buy that. The highest performance and most compatible PC workstation today is Xeon E5 or D, and NVIDIA Quadro. AMD Radeon doesn't support 30-bit color, is less power efficient, and has worse Unix support. I wouldn't bother with a CPU that doesn't support ECC memory, and 10-bit per color is important to me. Vegas lists NVIDIA OpenCL support:

"GPU-accelerated video processing and rendering requires an OpenCL™-supported NVIDIA®, AMD/ATI™, or Intel® GPU with 512MB memory; 1GB for 4K."

Catalyst Core is supposedly handling modern GPU processing differently, where old recommendations might not hold anymore. But most importantly, I am not to blame for SCS instability. Other software does not crash like Vegas and Catalyst on my system. It's their job to fix software, not mine to conform to unofficial recommendations spread through gossip on web forums.

An Apple machine might actually perform well for Catalyst, since I saw a SCS employee demonstrating it on one. I'll watch some screencasts of Final Cut Pro.
videoITguy wrote on 12/18/2015, 11:28 AM
@Jamon, as I stated earlier it is really futile to compare programs like VegasPro - an NLE full featured, and Catalyst Edit - a prepare and ENG edit cut tool.

Further these two are optimized to run on very different hardware, so they would and should not be configured for a single platform concurrently in use.

Your remark about running Apple is appropriate.
OldSmoke wrote on 12/18/2015, 12:52 PM
[I]The highest performance and most compatible PC workstation today is Xeon E5 or D, and NVIDIA Quadro.[/I]

And yet it is not the best platform for Vegas Pro. ECC memory is nice to have but not a must at all. Buy a higher speed spec Non ECC Ram and run it the CPU max speed and you are good to go.

Vegas performs better with higher clock speeds and 6-8cores are sufficient, it may not even us them all. A 5960X system will be much faster and paired with a 390X will do 4K just nicely.
Even my 3930K and 2x R9 290 is doing well with 4K, sufficient to do work with 4k 29.97p files natively and it is rock solid.

You also don't need to buy "old" hardware, the 390X, Fury X are excellent cards and extreme well suited for Vegas Pro. If you need deeper color support, FirePro W9100 will certainly help with that too although, and here we are back to that issue, Vegas doesn't preview 10bit as far as I know.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Jamon wrote on 12/19/2015, 9:50 AM
I'm talking about how SCS software is unstable during the past several years, and I am searching for a new video tool to replace Vegas, which I had hoped Catalyst was.

Vegas doesn't work for me if it's crashing and plugin interfaces sometimes don't display correctly on UHD resolution with 200% Windows 10 scaling. The GUI is often clunky and less comfortable for working in than it should be.

Catalyst Edit was marketed in the sales pitches as a "cut tool", because they were trying to sell it when 1.0 couldn't do anything but that. There were no effects, and tracks couldn't even be rearranged. They were showing it off at broadcaster convention centers, to people who buy professional Sony cameras, because that's one of its primary purposes, as software to support the hardware sales and Sony recording formats.

Catalyst might be designed with a modular workflow intended to be marketed for news broadcasters, but that doesn't necessarily limit its artistic potential. I made this using nothing but the built-in generators and effects as a test, and I found it to be as flexible as Vegas in many areas:

The future of Catalyst is unknown, but right now today it's a lot closer to Vegas in fundamental areas than people seem to realize. There's functionality missing, but there's no reason to assume that it won't develop further. A salesman is going to try to sell you what they have today, not entice you to wait.

Not all of us are video professionals, or Vegas diehards who would build a machine dedicated to that one piece of aging software. I've always kept Vegas around as part of my multimedia toolset. I do not devote my life to that one utility. If it can't work right on my system, then I search for something that does, I don't bend my hardware to conform to the Vegas bubble of reality.

I need ECC, and 10-bit. That means Xeon and Quadro, like I have. The FirePro W9100 isn't listed for sale anymore, but it was $3,000!

That's crazy. I paid under $1K for my new Quadro, which I thought was too much money, and it uses less power, and fits in a single slot. Nvidia has better Unix driver support, and one of my Radeons doesn't even work at all.

So if someone wants to build a machine only for Vegas, that's fine. Maybe I'd do that if I were producing videos frequently, or were guaranteed it would result in no crashes. But I'd guess you Vegas freaks are the minority. I doubt most people earn money from Vegas work, and I bet most just install it on whatever PC they have, even a laptop that has lots of other software running at the same time.

I started recreating the "PressReleaseProject.veg" benchmark in Catalyst Edit. I got enough done where I could do a quick compare, and estimates look like Vegas Pro is faster at both preview framerate and render time!

I was under the impression that with them creating the new "Catalyst Core", they would have built a foundation that better utilizes modern hardware to accelerate further than Vegas Pro does. Or at least, work the same. But to be slower? That's a step backward.
OldSmoke wrote on 12/19/2015, 10:42 AM
[I]If it can't work right on my system, then I search for something that does, I don't bend my hardware to conform to the Vegas bubble of reality.[/I]

But you are bending your hardware for your needs, you say you need 10bit and ECC. So if one needs Vegas, then why not bending the hardware to make it work the best it can? Especially if one uses it to make a living from it. And I also bet you that if SCS would release a limited list of hardware configurations that are proven to work with Vegas Pro, people will follow and buy that hardware.

All we want from SCS is giving a clear statement that Vegas Pro will be supported and updated when required to comply with new codecs, hardware and OS. The software has matured to a point where there is little to improve but rather working out the bugs. You cant beat the GUI and workflow that Vegas has. Like MS went back from the stupid Metro GUI to the more Win7 look and feel that Win10 has now. MAC OS GUI hasn't changed since God knows when, it has been improved but it still feels the same and I hardly would call it an aging piece of software.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Jamon wrote on 12/19/2015, 11:17 AM
For most people, one of the appeals of the PC has been that it's general purpose. They get one powerful or portable machine, and it can be reused for a multitude of purposes. People's primary purpose is what pushes certain hardware decisions. Often that is for gaming, and they will purchase what will result in fast framerate at high resolution. Then they install Vegas on that machine, and edit their recorded gameplay or pranks or whatever and upload it to YouTube.

If you mainly just edit videos, and prefer Vegas, especially if making money from it, then obviously you'd select hardware that performs better for that, even if it results in slower gameplay.

I'm not prescribing anything for you to do or not do. I'm sharing notes during my exploration for my own purpose of trying to replace Vegas with Catalyst. I didn't really plan to do that, but I'll probably need to edit some little videos for the web, and when I used Vegas for one it seemed like things could be better. I've been watching Catalyst since its announcement, and only very recently was it updated to have most of the basic functionality I'd need, so the timing was right to try to invest in building projects on it instead.

But as you can see in these notes over the past week, there's been no clear cut winner between them, and in many ways neither of them are suitable. I prefer the idea of Catalyst, but the bugs and crashes tend to override any ideals. Maybe they'll release Vegas 14 tomorrow, and it'll be a next-generation GUI with stable core and hyper speed!

But even if I intended to buy a PC for only editing video, I'd think twice before designing it solely for Vegas. It's possible Catalyst will catch up and out run Vegas, and if not, there are others like Resolve that might be better platforms. Because as I said before, this is a repeat for me. I was trying to use Vegas years ago and it was unstable. I reported bugs, and time went by, but newer versions are still buggy. That means either some piece of hardware I use is causing it (they said before it was Wacom drivers, but I certainly wouldn't give up Wacom for Vegas), or the software itself is just buggy.

There aren't enough Vegas freaks such as yourself willing to buy hardware specifically for it for SCS to stay in business from Vegas sales. That's why it's not unreasonable to expect it to be stable on every common configuration.
OldSmoke wrote on 12/19/2015, 12:23 PM
[I]There aren't enough Vegas freaks such as yourself[/I]

Be careful with your choice of words! This is a friendly forum.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

ushere wrote on 12/19/2015, 4:52 PM
hey, we're all freaks here otherwise we wouldn't be here in the first place ;-)

you've sort of set yourself up for a fall - if pro's don't buy vegas then there's certainly no point continuing development, catalyst, whilst having every good intention, is far from a professional nle at present.

scs is between a rock and a hard place. dropping vegas will have users looking elsewhere and it certainly won't be to catalyst. continuing vegas means (i presume) using resources that otherwise would be directed at catalyst and (hopefully) aimed at making it a professional tool to supersede vegas.

i admire your (jamon) diligence in investigating catalyst and vegas, you obviously have enough time to experiment in some depth, but you must bear in mind that pro's, ie. people making a living from using their nle, do not have time for half-baked software and are more than willing to change ship to one that offers what they NEED rather than one that promises yet doesn't deliver.
Jamon wrote on 12/19/2015, 7:52 PM
Anyone willing to build a PC dedicated for running Vegas is I think by definition a Vegas freak. Enthusiasts often get so absorbed in their interests and small group of like-minded friends that they forget how unusual it is. Most people for whom Vegas crashes would find it a bit crazy to be suggested to build a new PC. It's like if Notepad had issues in Windows, and a Microsoft Community MVP suggested buying a Microsoft branded keyboard.

I'm actually supposed to be doing another project, but it's more daunting, and I'm self-employed so I can choose to focus on what is essentially beta-testing Catalyst, even if it's to my own detriment. There's lots of reasons why I'd dedicate effort toward that.

One is I consider it an investment, with shared community benefits. I've partially given up on Vegas and SCS years ago. But Catalyst was renewed hope, and if I could help them succeed in building a useful product, then in the future I'll have better tools available.

Another is you Vegas freaks have been very unwelcoming of Catalyst. As someone who was using Sonic Foundry software before Vegas existed, and recorded in the first Vegas release, and has preferred Vegas for video above all else since, but isn't a "fan", professional, or brand loyalist, I feel like I can make a fairer assessment of how Catalyst actually compares to Vegas.

In the thread here when Catalyst was announced, the poor SCS guy was mobbed and ran out. There's definitely some of that "protect our family" kind of stuff going on here, where Catalyst is seen as a threat by many devoted to Vegas. If someone is able to put food on the table because of Vegas, and built a machine exclusively for it, and invested many years into the mastering of it, then they're very likely to be upset if Vegas' future is threatened, and the replacement isn't viable for what they do so is useless for them. It would essentially mean being abandoned by the software producer, whom they are dependent on. It would mean being hit with the real practicality of needing to uproot their traditional workflow, and learn something different, to transition to a new system, all while they're already busy working.

But multimedia for me is mostly just about gadgets that light up and make sounds. I don't even publish anything, and rarely even open Vegas. I've kept up with buying new cameras, mostly just to play with a few times to see the latest advancements in technology. Much like how I bought a 3D video game after getting my new video card, because I hadn't seen the latest game technology in many years. I don't play the game anymore, but I got to experience the results of a lot of people's hard work to push technology further.

Catalyst is the cumulative effort of the development behind Vegas Pro. The thought behind it certainly must be built upon years of experience in providing Vegas software. Surely Catalyst is not built from nothing, and even must include code that came directly from Vegas itself. The developers at SCS are in a privileged position to get the most attention and data about Sony formats from the engineers behind the hardware they produce.

I come at it from a perspective of appreciating the progression of technology, not the protection of tools I depend on to stay the same. So I can more freely play with the new toy, and people more conservative can see if it's safe to accept yet or not.

Clearly the answer right now is, it is not safe. Turn back. If you cross that bridge right now, it might collapse.

However, I want there to be potential. I don't see many people developing these kinds of tools, and it's rare to be in the position of SCS where they have exclusive access to Sony, which is producing some of the most impressive camera technology right now.

Vegas is really old. It's unusual that I still have Sound Forge and Vegas. Even Photoshop has changed so significantly by moving to forced subscription, that although I still have Photoshop, it isn't the same as decades ago, and I'm looking to replace it. Sound Forge has not kept up with advancements in my eyes, and long ago was feeling outdated, and yet SCS has clung to it without really making much change on the Windows side. Vegas has been added to, but still closely resembles its original form.

SCS seems overall to be a traditionally conservative company. They hold onto their nest eggs, not letting them hatch and transform into something that might fly away. When they held on for too long, and are left with dead eggs, there's no guarantee they can hatch something else in time, and that it won't fall to its death.

So it is a very difficult situation. I see similarities in much of the PC world lately. It seems to have peaked around 6 years ago, and has slowly fallen since, which not surprisingly happens to be around when iOS and Android were released and started quickly growing.

A lot of this audio/video stuff is "old media", which is at least partially already deprecated. Most people cannot perceive or appreciate the microscopic details that many in audio and video believe is critically important. It's like how an Olympic athlete is overly concerned about the tiniest slivers in time, when for 99.99% of the world those things don't matter at all and they just want to get to the bank before it closes, not in .022 microseconds less than the competition.

Most TV news is stupid. SCS can market to them, but I don't know how much longer there'll even be a market. I haven't seen TV news in a million years, and a bigger audience cares more about what's on their phone than a television in 4K.

I'm pretty sure someone could run a successful video business using pocket cameras today, and only delivering files that are compatible with Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. If you can't see it, then it's because your head is still stuck in the '90s, when Vegas was much more impressive. Today, the app, which is used for really ridiculous nonsense, has a more interesting video editing interface than I've seen in the PC world lately., which is also used for pointless garbage by most, also has a more interesting live video broadcasting interface than any TV news advancements lately. I've watched far more interesting things on Periscope than TV news could ever hope to capture; everything from a guy trying to pet wild Kangaroos, and seeing one up close with her joey, to piglets being born in the middle of the night, to the landscape from hot air balloons, to the view of Dubai from a high-rise hotel, to the view from within a long line of people waiting to see the President of the US and their reactions to him and the Pope, to people in another country waiting to watch the demolition of a huge historical building, to people in a 747 jet converted to carry a large telescope for observation from the sky, to the private view from within a family home where the children face brutal disease that threatens their life. I can go on for a lot longer than I can tell you what I remember from all the years watching television in the past.

The tools are changing, and new technologies already here, even if most people don't yet know how to utilize them for meaning and deeper value.

Catalyst could be the best tool for delivering high-quality YouTube videos, or embedded MP4/VP9 on your news site, while promoting the use of Sony cameras. But I'm not sure how much SCS are even thinking about that. Catalyst doesn't even have a WebM render option, and the Sony Motion JPEG files my Sony RX100 produced don't even import.

I can't help but partially see Catalyst as the 50-year-old in the convertible. He got a snazzy new wardrobe, and the car looks like it should be powerful, but where is he going? What is he doing? He's misapplying things from his past, mixing it up with fashion from the popular today, and ultimately going nowhere.

I hope my bug reports can help contribute toward Catalyst becoming a stable product, and others should do the same if they have time and don't mind beta testing. I'll probably try using it for actual videos uploaded to YouTube soon. It should work if I hit Ctrl+S a lot to avoid data loss when it crashes, and I wish XAVC S rendering worked for better quality uploads than MP4. I think it might be a more pleasant workflow than Vegas in some ways. It does entice me a little to get a new camera that can record to a raw format, so I can play with the processing technology and see how it compares. But one step at a time.
ushere wrote on 12/20/2015, 12:54 AM
a well thought out post jamon, and in many respects very forward thinking...

however, the death of production values is not quite upon us yet. star wars will NEVER be shot on an iphone, nor will 'serious' tv.

catalyst fails miserably as a pro tool (in my eyes) for two simple reasons, lack of audio and poor chroma key. there's other shortfalls as well, and pointing me to plugins is not an answer to lack of original functionality...

i will continue reading your excellent reports and paying attention to your findings, but i don't ever see ANY of my clients accepting iphone footage or poor production quality. as the old saw goes - you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear;-)
set wrote on 12/23/2015, 5:10 PM
Videomaker's review of Catalyst Edit:


Setiawan Kartawidjaja
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Jamon wrote on 12/23/2015, 11:25 PM
I just discovered something that gives a huge +1 to Catalyst... its files are in standard XML format!

That's so big in fact that it practically declares Catalyst the future winner in my eyes. You can open your project in a text editor and edit things if you want. You can use standard text tools, like version control systems to maintain a changelog of your project, where you can revert to previous versions, or see what's changed since any date. You could even program something that allows you to automate more advanced tasks, from something basic like automatically generating you a new project with a name based on dynamic variables like today's date, or automatically populating it with today's media you transferred, or setting up tracks with commonly used effects preloaded, or duplicating slivers of clips a thousand times with effects applied for some impossible special effects you couldn't do by hand. You could even have your website automatically generate Catalyst media libraries they can download using your stock footage for sale.

I foresee where you'll be able to extend Catalyst by writing your own extensions in something like QML (which they seem to already be doing, check the Extensions folder), and scripting anything using a standard language like JavaScript.

Sony is known for their extreme proprietary nature. I was surprised to open the files created by a product carrying the Sony branding and seeing a text file using an open standard markup language. By not locking it down they allow for so much user-empowered possibility.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 12/24/2015, 8:57 AM
> "catalyst fails miserably as a pro tool (in my eyes) for two simple reasons, lack of audio and poor chroma key. there's other shortfalls as well, and pointing me to plugins is not an answer to lack of original functionality..."

It's important to point out that "your eyes" (like mine) are the eyes of a lone-editor. Catalyst Suite is designed for the broadcast and film production pipeline. Video editors in broadcast and film don't process their own audio. They sends stems to the audio department who mixes with Pro Tools. They also don't chroma key their own footage. That's handled by the FX department, probably using a powerful compositor like Nuke. I wouldn't expect Sony to worry about any of that until they get their basic editing functions complete and solid as a rock. I'm guessing that Catalyst is called a "Suite" because there may be other tools coming that do compositing, audio, etc. I don't think that Catalyst Edit was ever intended to be one tool to rule them all like Vegas Pro is. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't add audio FX but I'm just pointing out that they are targeting a different audience so properties may be different.

wilvan wrote on 12/24/2015, 4:19 PM
Indeed jr .
People in here are still confused I guess .
Untill an update of vegas pro is released or announced ....

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Avid Media Composer 2022.xx ( started with the FREE Avid Media Composer First in 2019 )
Dedicated solely editing systems , fully optimized , windows 10 pro x 64 
( win10 pro operating systems , all most silly garbage and kid's stuff of microsoft entirely removed , never update win 10 unless required for editing purposes or ( maybe ) after a while when updates have proven to be reliable and no needless microsoft kid's stuff is added in the updates )

Peter Siamidis wrote on 12/24/2015, 4:27 PM
"It's important to point out that "your eyes" (like mine) are the eyes of a lone-editor. Catalyst Suite is designed for the broadcast and film production pipeline. "

Yeah I'm thinking that maybe Vegas Pro and Movie Studio are the ones that will be merged and kept going, because they will always need a smaller cheaper all in one tool given how many video cameras they sell. The could pack someone else's video software in the box with all those camera's but I can't see why they would do that when they have their own. It does make sense that Catalyst Suite is intended for the pro market, and Vegas/MovieStudio are meant for everyone else like us lone editors and people buying new consumer or prosumer video cameras.
Jamon wrote on 12/25/2015, 12:07 AM
I gave that perspective a chance, and viewed it as a professional system for broadcast and cinema enterprise, to be used in a team-based pipeline. But I see very little evidence to support that.

If you look at glimpses into the SCS world they share on social media platforms, and delve into the new software being produced without listening to marketing first, you might see a different story.

Catalyst isn't anything for anyone. SCS has always been the hacky indie artist freak in the room, from kids thinking they're musicians because they dragged some loops into ACID, to kiddies uploading crappy clips to YouTube with their pirated version of Vegas.

It still says on this page, "Sony Creative Software inspires artistic expression". What you see coming from them lately is an odd mixture of small-time software developer meets corporate electronics giant. They're distanced from the head of that, but the long arm still influences some of the aim toward being Sony camera companion.

But SCS itself seems partially inept. They themselves aren't the top-tier professional has-it-all-together kind of team in software, and I don't see them pulling that off for the old media industry. They're still making what is essentially ACID, and they're still the freaks in the room.

Instead I think it's more fruitful to view Catalyst as designed for nobody. Unless video pros don't use the internet, I see almost zero activity online in reference to Catalyst. I'm one of the few who have posted anything in interest, and I'm the least pro, and oddest among you.

I don't think Catalyst was designed; at least, not by any mastermind. It's like a mixture of a bunch of little motivations. From moving to Apple hardware, to needing things like RAW Viewer for Sony cameras, to the popularity of mobile and touch interfaces, to modern design and ultra-high-definition displays, to underlying technologies in Vegas being deprecated as Microsoft moves into Windows 10 and its Universal app framework.

They went with a modular approach, building a core codebase, that different people are building different things with. Just because it's modular doesn't mean it's a system for teams. That can be one of their ideas, or spins for how things emerged. But I think it's pretty clear they don't have much more of a clue than you do.

They after all are not master designers, but simply a business trying to respond to user feedback about problems and needs, which they dedicate some portion of their day toward trying to produce practical solutions for. Sony itself isn't even a mastermind, it's this huge network of every possible thing that is doing the same across multiple industries.

If the market demand for expensive broadcast hardware stopped tomorrow, and everyone were using mobile phones, then Sony isn't going to continue producing out of some master plan; they'll simply stop manufacturing the expensive gear they do, and the software will be marketed all about mobile, "New Vegas, now with built-in iPhone emulated preview, and instant upload to Instagram!"

Catalyst is just a bunch of junk a bunch of people are throwing together, and as with any new product, they're both a little unsure, afraid, and hoping something will stick so they don't have to throw away everything they've done. If one thing doesn't work, they'll shift toward any little demand they get, and the software will transform into anything people with money want.

SCS is not a company culture that clearly caters to broadcast professionals. They hang out with indie artists with dreadlocks and ponytails in fetish convention centers for people to drool over bitchin' new toys.

This is the face of Catalyst:

So can we please change narrative away from this "Catalyst is for ENG teams" stuff? It clearly is not. I'm not even a video pro and I couldn't use Catalyst without finding glaring bugs staring me in the face every step of the way. Even if we pretend Catalyst was intended to be such, it hasn't succeeded, and shows no signs I see of moving toward that.

Instead it's just what it always has been, some affordable software you can download for your PC that might be useful for something you need to do. If Windows Explorer isn't showing thumbnail previews of your media when browsing the SD card from your Sony camera, then people call up Sony customer service pizzed off, "Why can't I see my damn video! I paid $3,000 for this POS and Sony can't even make a camera that works!? I AM NEVER BUYING ANY SONY PRODUCT AGAIN. Fix it NOW!!"

"Dear Moron, I see you are having issues with the display of video thumbnails from your Sony camera when plugging it into your computer. Please rest assured we are taking this concern very seriously, and have created just for you a free product Catalyst Browse that will display all your Sony videos, and it works for both Mac and PC. Click here to download the free app and STFU."

Vegas is a product of the PC era, when the big hype was around building your desktop workstation, setting up a mini version of a professional studio in your bedroom, with flashing LED lights, knobs, and sliders everywhere. But things change, and as that PC crowd boxes up the dusty gear to make room for the nursery and wife's sewing machine for her Etsy business, the Vegas foundation becomes shaky.

When the new bedroom producer only owns a tablet or Apple laptop, what are you gonna do? If you're in the business of catering to those people, you create Catalyst. It triggers different tickle points that differ from old PC heads, but the basic idea is still the same as ACID and Vegas: make something that appears pro enough to play into indie delusions of grandeur, but is affordable, compatible with common gear and paradigms, to become something people will want to pirate.

Unfortunately for Catalyst right now, it only has a handful of seeders, and a single leecher for only 2 releases (Windows and Mac); and Vegas is flourishing with 1,603 torrents, and closer to a thousand seeders. But funnily enough, most people right now are downloading Vegas Pro 11, not 13.

So like I said, Catalyst is for nobody, or anybody who might find a use for it. Use it, or don't. Vegas is mature and works for most people today, but a lot of those are on the tail end of what's hot in the scene. Maybe someday you'll see hipsters proud to be booting up an old PC to use that Vegas thing their grandpappy did.

I tend to experiment with the bleeding edge, and lately I've probably spent more time exploring mobile devices for media production than PC tools like Vegas. I'm not part of any industry, but that doesn't mean that tomorrow most money can't be in the hands of pocket producers. Right now a lot of kids are doing the struggling artist thing online by producing niche media for paying subscribers. I know of more people who only have a Netflix subscription than those with TV. It's the market that leads, so the demand will shape the tools.

I paid for Catalyst, did you? Do you know any professional broadcast or cinema groups basing their system on Catalyst? Do you ever even see that likely to happen? If not, then even if someone at SCS believes they're designing something for them, to move the Catalyst forum over to the Sony community where people who buy their cameras post, and that they're going to switch the surfer shorts for a suit, shutting the door on you wacky Vegas geeks... they probably just smoked too much of something laced with a little something else.

Catalyst is for kids with better gear than their iPhone-camera peers. It's for ACID types who want to pretend they're doing something powerful, with their nifty little color wheels and $1,500 Tangent control surface they bought for their bedroom studio.

What a lot of you don't seem to realize is, Vegas is the same thing. But what was hip when you got started was different than it is today. These tools have to support high-quality formats and expensive gear or they wouldn't be useful for those special interests of the extreme fringe. But they are not big budget, big enterprise kinds of things. They're "prosumer", and quite often the professional using higher-quality consumer class hardware is a sole-proprietor working mostly alone, or very small groups that don't need advanced things like dedicated project database and high-speed data links between remote networked studios with integral system of software components. But Sony will let you do something similar by uploading to their Ci cloud, and handing off a Prepare library to your friend "partner" down the street to edit what you guys know will be the greatest movie of all time.

Okay, I'm being a little extreme to make a point, but you get the picture. Catalyst is for you if you want it. Just see what it does you like, and voice your desires to the SCS crew. They'll pile all your opinions together, and come out with something that appeals to the majority. If that's pro ENG, great, if it's YouTubers, fine, if it's nobody... well, that's the only thing they don't want to happen.
ushere wrote on 12/25/2015, 3:00 AM
i might not agree with jamon's picture of future producers creating high end tv on iphones / ipads / whatever, but unfortunately i completely agree with his overall comments regarding catalyst edit.

i can't see any incentive in the least to even try using edit as a commercial tool in its present form, in fact, it would be a HUGE step backwards from vegas. it is at the moment a bare bones nle whose skeleton appears to be held together with marketing hype and little else.

i've talked with a number of friends in various areas of video production, from event through to broadcast and not a single one of them saw any 'use' to edit. prepare had a few takers (myself included), but edit was more of a 'sad joke' to quote one tv producer.

when you go up against the establishment (avid, adobe, grass valley, etc.,) you need to make them worry, resolve is certainly doing this, but edit - i don't think it even registers on their radar.

whereas jamon thinks future will be 'garage band' budget inspired gadgets, i still think they'll be ever more 'indie' producers (albeit wedding, doco, sports, cable, etc.) working out of a bedroom, small / shared office space, who will always appreciate and support an all-in-one nle. vegas HAS well established it's credentials in this field, and for scs to think cataylst is going to be a substitute is a pipe dream. but the stuff they're smoking at the moment seems to have clouded their vision of where the future lies.