Check out TMPGEnc before even perusing Cleaner, and IMHO before ProCoder.
In-Sync are claiming to have 20-pass functionality in their new SpeedRazor/Blade offerings. Jury is still out as to whether this is a good thing.

If you can wait, SoFo are likely to be one of the first to make it possible to use the MainConcept MPEG-2 plug when the manufacturer releases a 2-pass version. Of course MainConcept will delay 3rd party support until they've maximised their direct sales. Within Vegas a built-in encoder has the potentially the advantage of metadata coming from the NLE to save some of the scene detections from being calculated as razor/DVEs occur. I doubt this is currently communicated in 4.0c though.

VV4 MPEG-2 encoder isn't a bad one by any stretch of the imagination. I find it sharp and not partial to showing you what a macroblock or a mosquito is.

From what I have read and seen, I believe the Procoder is a disappointment especially coming from a great company like Canopus.

The MainConcept encoder in V4 is very good and you may need to just try adjusting the settings. The alternative is to frameserve out to TMPGEnc which is probably the best low cost encoder available (much better than some very expensive ones!).

Bottom line, try making some adjustments or trying recommended changes from other users. Run some short test files and see which ones look best to you.

>> Of course MainConcept will delay 3rd party support until they've
>> maximised their direct sales.

This simply isn't true. We make new features in our SDK available promptly to licensing partners. But the partners then have to roll the new technology into their own QA and release cycles.

Mark Bailey
MainConcept

Procoder in mastering quality is hard to beat. I have, and use, Vegas, cce sp, TMPGenc,
and now the MainConcept encoder with Sorenson Squeeze. All are excellent, and have different strengths/weaknesses. But, if you want to maximize MPEG2 quality with speed of encoding, Procoder is the best. Read some of the threads on the Procoder forum at canapus for more detailed info and comparisons.
http://forum.canopus.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=ProCoder
JTH

It is important to take into consideration the bitrates used when evaluating and discussing mpeg encoders. IMO. at full DVD bitrate most all encoders will do a decent job and one has to look at the effect of the pre-processing built in to them as well as the destination display device. For example, one must make a decision whether they like the sharpness or softness of a particular encoder. Also, speed is very much a consideration for some people and not one for many others.

Less important these days are the lower bitrate delivery methods like VCD or SVCD. Yet, the efficiency and methodology of a particular encoder in conjunction with the lower bitrate, take SVCD in particular, will tend to really show up, perhaps magnify is the better term, the differences between different encoders. IMO, this is where Procorder, specifically when rendering interlaced source like DV, really shows a difference with clarity/sharpness, MUCH lower mosquito noise patterns, etc.

I think if you are doing a DVD bitrate encode the internal encoder which is excellent is more than fine if you are comfortable with the speed. The only thing I have always noticed is, again just IMO, a little too much filtering and a slightly "too soft" look. Perhaps there is a setting that I missed when doing those tests that might make the final output sharper.

Also something very important to take into consideration is your source. Mpeg encoders are absolutely NOT equal when it comes to progressive or interlaced source. The key thing here is to evaluate different encoders with the source style you are using. It may well be you settle on two encoders of choice depending on what your source is. This is why I was a bit on the militant side about having the ability to frameserve from Vegas. It allows you the choice to use many more tools in a easy and efficient way so that YOU can evaluate the outcome.

One thing for sure. You will get replies from many that really don't have a clue on what they are speaking about when it comes to mpeg encoders. There seems to be some strange mental effect in some of these folks where they need to express a loyalty to some specific method or tool. Having a loyalty to some damn dumb software tool is just a little silly and sophomoric. Tools are meant to allow you to accomplish a specific job. They don't kiss you back if you make them happy :) [The only exception to this rule is VEGAS which is so sweet it does kiss you back everyday :-)] Use the one that works for you for that particular job and that job's inherent particular factors.

In closing I would just suggest you evaluate all the mpeg encoders you can get your hands on. Satish's frameserver makes this a much easier and less time consuming task. Look for a building consensus of opinion in the video community, but make your own final judgments based upon your particular source, available bitrate, and delivery vehicle as different tools do different jobs based upon those sets of factors. One that is clearly excellent on one, may well be less than that excellent on another set of source factors.

I sued Vegas and I use ProCoder, Vegas does some projects better, and ProCodrer does other projects better. I would suggest having both of them in your arsenal.

can anyone point me to a reference, etc. on how to frameserve vegas output to procoder?

I got a Canopus RES 100 a couple of weeks ago, wow! Very nice MEPG2 in real time capture. Must confess I still prefer hardware capture vs. software encode.

Mr Mark Bailey
I retract my statement based purely on assumption and scinicism and apologise to MC. Keep up the good work.

Marketing departments don't always run riot over engineering as this official response has proven.

Daves2,
Get Satish's frameserver from http://www.debugmode.com/pluginpac/frameserver.php

"I still prefer hardware capture vs. software encode. "

FWIW, when it works (don't need filtering etc.), direct capture is nice -> you're skipping a generation & each one costs... Same is actually true for real & winmedia, you can get a better encode, smaller (comparred to single pass encoding of avi files).

I tested CCE 2.66 SP, TMPEGenc up to 2.511.51.161, MainConcept (standalone 1.31, Vegas, Cleaner XL also uses MC), Ligos (most recent Premiere plug-in version), ...

Then I tested Procoder.

Wow!

Seeing is believing.

I would strongly suggest that you give the demo a try.

In the TARGET settings, click on ADVANCED. Set parameter
Video / Basic / Speed/Quality-Mode to "Mastering-Quality",
Video / Advanced / DC-Precision to 10.

Although there are cases where Procoder doesn't beat the competition, most of the time it stands above the pack.

For what it's worth, German magazine videoaktiv digital issue 1/2003 reviewed 12 MPEG encoders. top scorers / picture quality (60 = max):
1. Canopus / 54
2. CCE SP / 53
3. Main Concept / 47
4. TMPGenc / 44
5. Honestech / 40
...
8. Discreet Cleaner 5 MPEG Supercharger / 21

For reference: A standalone Pioneer DVR-7000 (price about $2000) got a picture quality score of 46.

FYI: Since that test, Canopus improved the MPEG encoding quality even further (most recent Procoder version is 1.50.22).

Also to consider: Procoder is much better suited for MPEG encoding of DV material than CCE (which works quite well with "analog" sources).

Hope this helps

JFT

Totally agreed. I have yet to see anything touch the quality of Procoder in 'mastering mode'.

The SF (Main Concept) is very good. As is TmpGenc and Cinema Craft Lite. But if you insist on the best, get ProCoder.

Mark

> Mr Mark Bailey
> I retract my statement based purely on assumption
> and scinicism and apologise to MC. Keep up the good
> work.
>
> Marketing departments don't always run riot over
> engineering as this official response has proven.

Thanks! BTW, I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just clarifying our position. :-)

Mark
MainConcept

http://www.debugmode.com/pluginpac/

Installs frameserve plugnpac for Vegas. Instructions on the web page.

JTH

thanks for the info on the frameserving - that looks very cool so I can't wait to try it...one question though on the timing - if I frameserve my output from vegas to procoder, I assume that vegas has to render the generated media, keyframe animation,etc. (even w/ no transcoding to mpeg2)...do I need to wait for any event to happen to start opening the file in procoder or will procoder let me open the file even if vegas is still creating it (or does it hand-off 'realtime')...if I don't have to wait until the file's created from vegas, would I start to encode in procoder while the file is still being output from vegas? e.g. what happens if (not likely, but if) the transcoding goes faster than the vegas can output? this is new to me so any clarification of the process would help me alot...thanks...

So what is the workflow if I decide to try Procoder

Edit in Vegas>export to...? Procoder?

If you want the ultimate quality -

Edit in Vegas, then frameserve to ProCoder 'mastering' mode.

Nope, happens on the 'fly'. Perform your edits, transitions, etc... in Vegas. Start The Plug in Frame server, open the generated *.avi file in Procoder, set your procoder variables, and start the conversion. Note: I have had some audio/synch issues with 2 pass vbr in Mastering mode with Vegas, (but not with other applications), so you may want to 'experiment' some. I haven't had the same issues using CBR.

JTH

JTH - Thanks - this worked great - very cool indeed...I guess when using procoder in 2pass vbr, it will ask vegas for the file again on the 2nd pass and the frameserver will know to go back and start at the beginning(?)...this is cool...