Actually, there is. Try the "Ignore Event Grouping" button on the toolbar. If you are doing a lot of multi-cam work, you may also want to check out Excalibur.

Looks like using Ignor Event Grouping is the best bet for my needs. (Lets me save the candy for myself :-) I still would like to see a grouping option that keeps an audio and video track 'synced' but allows the ends of eiyther one to be trimmed as needed.

Maybe Vegas 4.1, huh.

Thanks for the great suggestions.

I still would like to see a grouping option that keeps an audio and video track 'synced' but allows the ends of eiyther one to be trimmed as needed.

That's the REASON for "Ignore Event Grouping"!

"That's the REASON for "Ignore Event Grouping"! "

Not really for my needs. Ignoring grouping also makes it very easy to accidentally slip one of the tracks. That's why I said I would like audio and video to remain synced, but trimming the ends could more easily make the audion independent of the video. I'm using Ignore. . . but each time I slip a track out of sync, I really appreciate UNDO.

Read this thread and see if it is what you are also talking about wmunn. It seems that it could be that same sync issue we are talking about.

http://sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=189402&Replies=9&Page=5

Thanks for the pointer to your thread. Yup, exactly what I was talking about. I guess there are only a subset of folks using the product for the kind of production where syncing is a big issue, or maybe folks don't go back to the film days and have a paradigm from which to begin. Curious there isn't more interest.

I think there should be a shared property of clips that is 'similar' to grouping. A bunch (sorry to use technical jargon :-) of clips on a track should be able to be identified as 'synced' or 'maintain sync.' Audio and video clips brought in together should by default, unless changed in the Preferences, be set to maintain sync. I also think there should still be the capability of these clips being 'grouped' so that tweaking one end or the other of either the video or audio or slipping a clip would cause the same action on the group.

If the grouping is removed, I want to be able to trim one audio or video clip end, without it affecting and other clip. Finally, even with Grouping disabled, or the group removed, if I slip one track (audio or video) of those in the 'sync' group, I want all the clips to stay in sync.

OK, thinking on the fly here. . .maybe one way of implementing is to put this ALL into a revised grouping property. The properties for a group could separate locking edges from the maintaining of sync. Radio buttons, preset by Preferences, could determine which properties applied to the group.

I also agree with one comment that knowing what Groups apply to a clip are kept as a mystery. I can never tell what group a clip is in and have sometimes resorted to blowing away all groups and recreating individually. Unfortunately, I have no immediate suggestion on how to add a display element that identifies grouping. Lines between tracks? Indenting the tracks, or physically placing them adjacent to one another?

My major project is a 50 minute interview shot with two cameras. I broke the interview up into independent scenes from each camera. Scenes of the interviewer asking the question and the scenes of the interviewee response. For the rough edit I have stuck with cross fades. I like to go to the interviewee before the end of the question, while it is still being asked, so I need options in trimming the video separate from the audio. I'm finding it easier to use completely separate video tracks for the two cameras.

I did have to do a little work on the front end since the close miked audio was recorded on only one camera, the other one I left with the on-camera mike. Rendering the clips with the proper audio took a little work, but it came out beautiful.

Wayne

Another thing I have found now is that say you uncheck the 'lock events' switch and you edit audio only. Ok...now you turn it back on and you also have the riplle edit turned on. *poof* The gap you just created with your audio only edit is taken as an 'edit' that needs to be 'rippled' - now you have al lot of out of sync stuff to take care of unless you catch this little ripple happenning.

yeah it is quirky and I am finding out to just leave auto ripple turned off becuase, for me, it creates far too many problems. (Another example - I have auto ripple turned on and I want to move the first shot about 3 shots in - just drag and drop right? Well yeah but auto ripple does this weird 'push over and drop' thing where you now have a gap at the head where that shot was.) And the sync issue is just a pain...I am editing a fight scene with with a lot of little edits and I am cutting away and moving shots around and deleting shots and then I keep hearing weird audio so I look and see tiny bits of left over audio hanging out on tracks not in view...audio from shots I deleted. So I am learning to just scan *all* tracks for weird little 'sync audio' left over. I tell you when I start cutting the audio/dialog on this film I fear this whole rippple/sync issue is going ot be a major pain in the ass.

Have you guys read the dozen or so pages in the full manual that goes to great length on grouping and moving events around? If not, you should.

Yes BB but that doesn't add a "sync on"/"sync off" switch to the interface. Plus having to do a lot of things that one should be able to do in one step isn't the best solution. :)

It is hard to explain for me I guess - try this - just drop a bunch of things on the time line. Now spilt a few track and drag them around. Now randomly delte one of the events. Do you have audio left over? Now before you say any of the "how to's" all I am saying is when I edit I don't want to 'think' about how to delete a sync take...I just want to click on the piece I want to delete and hit the "delete" key. If it is a sync piece I want the audio and the picture to go bye-bye. I want to find a piece of audio down on track 7 that should have been deleted with a piece of video on track 1.

The relationship between multiple events across tracks is a complex one. You can create groups and move them as a single unit. However once you start to edit, the group relationship can be defeated. That's by design. If I understand what you want, you expect Vegas to be a mind reader. For example how would Vegas know while you're ediiting video track #4 it should also edit audio track #12 the same way without any additional input from you?

I think this should be filed under "it ain't broke, so don't try to fix it" unless I'm totally missing what you want, you should be able to work on a range of events, any combination of video and audio with proper use of the various control keys and menu choices. In others words YOU got to tell Vegas what events to act on by selecting the right menu choices to turn on/turn off ripple editing envelope editing, etc.. Like with other complex software, Vegas makes frequent use of control keys like Ctrl, Shift, Alt and depending on what you want to do you need to hold down one of those keys while also doing the other required choices.

Its one of the most complex things to grasp because there are so many options, cross-fades, slip trimming, sliding, grouping, splitting, etc..

>>>For example how would Vegas know while you're ediiting video track #4 it should also edit audio track #12 the same way without any additional input from you?<<<

In my case the concept is that VV *should* know that if I take a sync sound take and drop it onto vudeo track 4 than the audio portion, based on your scenerio, that is on track 12 is 'locked' to it by default. Currently if you edit as is you can shorten or lengthen that clip but problems arise, for example, if you split that track. For a fight scene I might drop in a master shot and than start splitting the event and adding other angles on the kicks, punches and what have you. It is not uncommon to remove one of those cuts - problem is, and someone else pointed this out, when you split the track(s) the sync lock seems to be lost so if you simply click on that event and hit the delete key you are left with, in your scenerio, audio on track 12.

As I pointed out in another thread covering this same topic - 'kiss'. And as you just pointed out with VV "Its one of the most complex things to grasp because there are so many options, cross-fades, slip trimming, sliding, grouping, splitting, etc.." So the concept of 'kiss' as far as basic editing goes is lost. To me I sort of say - why does it take so many options and keyboard 'shortcuts' to simply lock audio and picture? In this case it defies 'logic'. On a moviola or an upright you would simple mark the slate and sync up the takes and than would also edge code once everything was in sync. On the video tape side you have picture and audio 'locked' onto tape. If you digitize this tape with both audio and picture and you play that clip - you have both in sync. With VV when you lace that same 'locked' clip onmto the timeline the sync lock goes out the window many times unless you want to go through "so many options, cross-fades, slip trimming, sliding, grouping, splitting, etc.."

And again - overly simple solution/concept - a sync lock switch. "Sync on" / "Sync off". Drop an event onto the timeline that has sync sound and if the "sync on" switch is on than that event is always in sync, even if split, moved, pulled, shortened or deleted it would always be 'locked'. I guess think of it as setting the aspect ratio for the media - when you split the event the pictures aspect ratio doesn't suddenly change. And obvious "sync off" would allow things such as audio insert or video insert among other things discussed here and elswhere. And this would not affect the "so many options, cross-fades, slip trimming, sliding, grouping, splitting, etc.." already available in VV. For me I don't want to right click, choose drop down option, take a step to the right and do the time warp again just to have somehting stay in sync that was already in sync before I made a simple edit/split. :)