Video Event FX Keyframes broken!

VanLazarus wrote on 12/30/2010, 6:17 AM
Is it just me, or are the keyframe diamond icons in the Video Event FX window in Vegas Pro 10 really messed up?

I can't place them on the frame I want to, nor do they always display! Sometimes they exist, but are not shown. I find it really hard to select them as well! The interface with keyframes seems to have taken a big step back!

Right it seems to want to place them on half-frames.... I can't line the keyframe up with the start of my clip!

Has anyone else experienced this weirdness?

Comments

LoTN wrote on 12/30/2010, 6:56 AM
This reminds me some battle with 10a keyframes. Are you using 10a or 10b ?
VanLazarus wrote on 12/30/2010, 11:22 AM
10b, but I saw the same behavior in 10a. The whole keyframe interface is very flakey now!
LoTN wrote on 12/30/2010, 1:36 PM
I haven't yet managed to get disappearing keyframes with 10b but I know I got this with 10a in the FX TL (among a bunch of other really annoying issues). I saved the project as another one, closed Vegas to make them to appear again.

Imho, the FX TL has been broken since the introduction of OFX. We miss old cursor behaviour, zoom in has strange effects, and precise keyframe alignment can no longer be done within it, there are temporal offsets, etc...

Another one I got today: when using project TL to align keyframes: only the FX that had focus int the FXs windows will get it's keyframes updated.

Working with keyframes turns into a hair pulling party...



VanLazarus wrote on 1/3/2011, 4:44 AM
Well, it's good to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing keyframing frustration... although I'm surprised that so few have spoken up. The keyframe interface seems so flakey for me, I'm not sure how Sony could have released 10, and even 10.0b with these bugs. Is there a point to logging a bug report with Sony Support? My past experience with them has always been a waste of time.
Steve Mann wrote on 1/3/2011, 6:07 AM
If Sony can't replicate the problem, then how can they possibly fix it?

I use event Fx's in most of my work and I haven't seen any anomalies in the keyframes. Perhaps if you were more specific and describe a process that anyone else could replicate, *then* you would have something that Sony can take a bite at.

Simply put - if the problem can't be replicated, then it isn't a bug.
robwood wrote on 1/3/2011, 6:50 AM
haven't had the problem u describe but have had strange things happen with keyframes in Vegas in the Pan/Crop window.

1) sometimes can't delete a keyframe by selecting it, i can't even highlight it... have to use the "next keyframe" button at the bottom of the screen to access it, then i can delete it.

2) sometimes after creating a number of keyframes in pan/crop, then deleting some earlier ones, i see a small "hiccup" in the motion where a keyframe had previously existed, as if a mild influence still existed tho the keyframe at that point was now gone (this stayed even if i closed and reloaded Vegas... only solution was to delete all keyframes in that pan/crop and start over).

3) sometimes i select a single keyframe (or think i did) but all of them get selected... this could be user-error tho, still trying to figure this one out.

-

anyway still trying to decide if V10 keyframing is a step back or just a step sideways... certainly got used to the old way of doing things, but think i'll wait til i'm more comfortable with the new interface before commenting further.
R0cky wrote on 1/3/2011, 7:44 AM
I've had a lot of trouble with keyframes. Can't select them, can't move them, can't delete them. I had to delete the whole fx and read it to get the keyframes to behave again. This was using a BCC7 OFX plugin. 10a or 10b I don't see any difference.
LoTN wrote on 1/3/2011, 9:34 AM
Steve wrote:
I use event Fx's in most of my work and I haven't seen any anomalies in the keyframes. Perhaps if you were more specific and describe a process that anyone else could replicate, *then* you would have something that Sony can take a bite at.

Do you use any OFX plugin, if yes which ones ?

Simply put - if the problem can't be replicated, then it isn't a bug.

I agree with this but it turns that despite the fixes done in 10b there are remaining problems with keyframes.

From 10b release notes:
# Fixed an issue with OFX presets for fractional values when saved or loaded with certain language settings active.
# Fixed an issue loading large presets for OFX plug-ins.
# Fixed an issue with OFX plug-ins that vary output even with fixed parameters.
# Fixed an issue that could cause OFX temporal frame access to be incorrect when rendering to a file.
# Fixed an issue loading and saving OFX presets that contain large amounts of data.
# Fixed an issue that could cause keyframes for OFX plug-ins to move to the start of the FX timeline.
# Fixed an issue that could cause an Undo operation in the video FX timeline to move all keyframes to the start of the FX timeline.
# Fixed incorrect results with certain OFX transition effect plug-ins when used on still images.
# Fixed OFX keyframe interpolation for certain cases.

1 - I really miss the VP8 FX TL cursor behavior. This is a regression.
2 - I can see glitches with BORIS and some other OFX plugins. Here the problem is to know if the culprit is the OFX host or the plugin. Since I can manage to reproduce the same issue with plugins from different vendors I would tend to believe the problem is with the OFX host, thus Vegas.
3 - Once a standard Vegas plugin has been keyframed, all others will be too even if you don't click on the 'Animate' button'
4 - Mixing standard plugins with OFX has some side effect on FX TL temporal references. i.e: put cursor at time 500, adjust some OFX plugin setting and see the keyframe created at 500+n (n may vary). I have yet to find how to reproduce this in a deterministic way.
5 - Adjusting keyframes from the project TL may not work sometime. I suspect this is the FX TL GUI that is not functioning as expected but like for (4) I have to look deeper into this.
6 - Some value adjustment of OFX plugin may not always end in keyframe creation. I have to find if it the problem is in BCC or Vegas.
7 - When adjusting keyframes from the project TL (which is now the ONLY way to easily align on frames because FX TL has no snapping), only the keyframes for the FX that had focus will be updated in the FX TL.

I am somewhat happy to read that I am not alone. I have little time to conduct isolated tests and then to send a comprehensive report to SCS but I will try to do it in best effort.

VanLazarus wrote:

Well, it's good to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing keyframing frustration... although I'm surprised that so few have spoken up. The keyframe interface seems so flakey for me, I'm not sure how Sony could have released 10, and even 10.0b with these bugs. Is there a point to logging a bug report with Sony Support? My past experience with them has always been a waste of time.

Yes we are not the only ones who have issue with the FX TL keyframes and its sync with the project TL. I know the developer of FBM White Balance also had surprising things with the OFX host. About SCS support, I sometimes feel the same but if we don't report bugs then we just can blame ourselves.

Imho, the best to do is to report those issues with details on how to reproduce and to hope they will be fixed quickly.
rsp wrote on 1/3/2011, 10:47 AM
same here: trouble selecting, moving and deleting keyframes .
Also was using BCC7
Same problem in Vegas 10a and 10b
VanLazarus wrote on 1/4/2011, 11:18 AM
Steve Mann,

I disagree with your statement "if the problem can't be replicated it isn't a bug". That's like saying, just because my computer randomly gets a BSOD, there aren't any bugs causing it. Some bugs are just very difficult to recreate consistently.

Yes, I agree... a report with a detailed method to recreate the problem consistently would HELP track down a bug.... but so far, this bug has been intermittent and I don't have time to give a lengthy quality assurance report for a problem that I assume Sony already is aware of.

If many people are experiencing this bug, then I assume that a few weeks of testing before Sony shipped the software would have recreated it... but maybe they decided to ship before they could solve the problem, even if they were aware of it.

Is there a list of known problems for Vegas 10.b that I could spend a few minutes looking through to see if they are aware of this problem before spending a few hours finding and documenting recreation methods?
rsp wrote on 1/6/2011, 1:27 AM
the keyframe problem i mentioned earlier seems to be solved after uninstalling both Vegas 10b and BCC7 and installing 10c and BCC7

no more keyframe problems for me