Vista implications for pro audio and video

Comments

TheHappyFriar wrote on 1/26/2007, 5:51 AM
You mean a single Intel CPU makes it "PC hardware"?

They've been using the same video cards recently too. but the CPU is one of the most important parts of any PC (I'd say the bios is more important). the CPU determines how every thing's done. It's an Intel Core Duo. Same as the PC's. So OSX uses the same way to communicate with the CPU and PC OS's.

It's not really different then an X-Box (not 360) in many ways.

JJKizak wrote on 1/26/2007, 6:44 AM
I'm really surprised that they don't make a 20 gig bios chip or a string of 1 gig chips for all OS and application storage and use the hard drives for everything else. This would mean instant on and off and speed up the gooosszeler. (Festus Hagen used to say that). Then again stack up the 20 gig E-proms and eliminate the hard drives.
JJK
rmack350 wrote on 1/26/2007, 8:10 AM
That sounds a bit more like the hybrid hard drives that Vista supports.
mikkie wrote on 1/26/2007, 8:32 AM
FWIW, I think the big problem early on with media (& all sorts of other software) in Vista is because in the past MS never did much of anything that could jeopardize legacy apps or hardware, plus developers could get away with writing code using practices that basically abused windows. Now MS has not just shut but locked the door. No kernal drivers, no short DX path to hardware, for Creative no easy way to access hardware functions and so on.

Don't mean to discount any drm, but have a bit of faith "ways will be found" ;?P Since there's no real hardware support today, at least for audio compared to XP, hard to say what will or will not work eventually. While Vista can use a lot more resources if you have them, early reports I've read seem to find it runs OK without Aero on some pretty old & slow hardware, so I'm not personally over-concerned about loss of horsepower.

IMHO it all seems like whenever MS comes out with a new version of Windows. Lots of hype, both pro and con - lots of initial problems -- & then new hardware starts filling the shelves with working drivers... software's released that uses whatever the new OS offers, & folks start worrying or anticipating the next version.
craftech wrote on 1/26/2007, 8:33 AM
What I don't understand, assuming what the author says is true, is why software, hardware manufacturers, and home entertainment manufacturers aren't in open rebellion against Vista.

It doesn't sound like they will be able to recoup their addition costs in what is for them (unlike Microsoft) a competitive market.

What the article describes doesn't seem like it can be resolved with OS "updates".

John
rmack350 wrote on 1/26/2007, 8:42 AM
Yeah, I thought that a lot of it wasn't so well thought out, but it's really fuel for people who want to manufacture more drama in their lives.

So let's see here. If I have a computer setup with an HD-DVD or Blueray player and I want to watch a movie on my hd resolution computer screen, or output it to my HDTV (none of which I have yet), then I'll need to make sure my graphics card and my display both support HDCP. And if I don't have a graphics card that shoulders a lot of the load, my CPU will be very burdened while I watch that HD title.

If I don't have HDCP then the playback will be governed by the AACS bit on the HD disc. Maybe it'll play over analog, maybe it'll play over analog at a reduced resolution and I'll return it to the store, maybe it won't play at all and I'll return it to the store.

In the mean time, when I'm not playing DVD titles this has no effect at all. And since I certainly won't be authoring an HD title with AACS, potential clients will never have any trouble with the discs I deliver to them, or at least not DRM trouble.

As far as the Aero overhead of Vista goes, I can turn all that off. No problem there.

Okay, so how does all this affect "pros"? Well, if your are editing video for a living and you rush off to Vista in the next six months you probably deserve everything you get. What would drive any NLE producer to support Vista right away? Unless HD-DVD and Blueray authoring are tied to Vista and DRM support, I don't know what the incentive would be for them to rush out Vista support.

Certainly the hardware dependent systems won't support Vista too quickly. Their users really are "pros" in as much as they feel it's reasonable to spend the money on hardware. They'd be screaming bloody murder if they got their businesses shut down because their hardware didn't work with Vista.

I think the first software to support Vista will be the small apps that come bundled on systems. Then things like Movie Studio, then Vegas and PPro (but not ppro with hardware).

Let the dust settle for 6 months or more.

Rob Mack
DrLumen wrote on 1/26/2007, 8:45 AM
Not to hijack the thread but just for the sake of discussion...

Here is a flash memory storage system that is meant to eliminate hard drives for video storage. I'm afraid to hear what it costs, but it would be an awesome toy for a hobbyist like me.

http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/snis/ovs/fmv/product_e.htm

Now, back to the M$ bashing! :-D

intel i-4790k / Asus Z97 Pro / 32GB Crucial RAM / Nvidia GTX 560Ti / 500GB Samsung SSD / 256 GB Samsung SSD / 2-WDC 4TB Black HDD's / 2-WDC 1TB HDD's / 2-HP 23" Monitors / Various MIDI gear, controllers and audio interfaces

rmack350 wrote on 1/26/2007, 8:59 AM
I think you have to stand back a bit farther. HD-DVD and Blueray titles will have AACS and will require home equipment to support HDCP. Forget about computers for the moment and just think about the set-top disc players, home theater systems, and the HDTVs. The home theater boxes and the HDTVs will have to have HDCP.

Computer and computer hardware manufacturers, and software companies, want a piece of the action too. This is a growth area in a mature market. To get a piece of that action they need to play along with DRM so that they can license the technology.

The thought of computers playing these HD titles surely made the content owners nervous as hell so, in conjunction with companies like MS and Intel, they worked to make DRM much more robust. Robust enough? We all assume it's going to be cracked.

DRM isn't going to affect your daily activities, unless all you do is watch and try to rip copy protected titles. It's surely not going to affect your legitimate video production unless you're trying to pull footage from copyrighted sources.

Rob Mack
JJKizak wrote on 1/26/2007, 9:05 AM
DrLumen:
The earthquake protection won me over.
JJK
GenJerDan wrote on 1/26/2007, 10:21 AM
DRM isn't going to affect your daily activities, unless all you do is watch and try to rip copy protected titles.

Did I read the article wrong?

If Joe Somebody in Oshkosh "cracks" the protection in the video card you happen to have, Vista will turn yours off, too, even though you haven't applied the crack.

If that's so, how is the DRM not affecting you?
ken c wrote on 1/26/2007, 10:35 AM
I say "forget Vista", just like I say "forget XP" ... I've been running Vegas fine on win2k and plan to continue doing so, for years. I've ghosted my main hard drive several times and have plenty of backups.

just because software developers release new products designed to help them make more money Doesn't mean I have to buy 'em. Although I like having cutting edge stuff, a basic platform like V6-7 and Win2K works great to produce video.


not enamored by buggy-beta shiny software toys,

ken
Coursedesign wrote on 1/26/2007, 10:38 AM
What we can hope for is what happened in broadcast HDTV.

Manufacturers got truly worried about angry consumers marching through the streets if their newly purchased HDTV sets that didn't have the latest flavor of HDCP suddenly were relegated to playing HDTV content in SD quality. As a result it is possible to watch HDTV content on just about any HD monitor, TV, or computer screen, without artificial deterioration.
PossibilityX wrote on 1/26/2007, 10:42 AM
After 25 years on a PC I switched to Mac for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was Windows' annoying tendency to become ever more bloated, intrusive, and limiting.

About the only thing I use my PC for these days is editing video. And in time I'll be doing that on the Mac, as well (with Vegas, of course.)
farss wrote on 1/26/2007, 12:59 PM
This DRM madness is already biting in this business. A post a little while back went mostly unnoticed. The Sony V1 has a HDMI port so you play your tapes back and watch them on a monitor / TV. Great idea except that monitor / TV had better be HDCP compliant else all you get out the DHMI port is SD!

Note, this is YOUR content, you just shot it on your camera.

I don't know if this affects the HDMI ports on other cameras as well nor how that is going to impact the BMD Intensity card.
mikkie wrote on 1/26/2007, 1:32 PM
I haven't kept up with it, probably won't until burner/player prices drop, but last I read HDMI was chosen as the spec because it included mandatory HDCP -- Hollywood wouldn't go along with non-drm alternatives, and without their support, no one was going to do HD DVD or Blu Ray.

So if that's still true (no reason to think otherwise) HDMI requires HDCP before you can license/use the design, and have to hope that in the future someone produces or posts directions to make a quick and easy HDCP bypass. Or they adopt a 2ndary standard... In the US every HDTV has to have HDMI by law, but there's nothing that says only HDMI. Eventually it will come to a head I think because the big names all would like to sell you an HDTV recorder -- today with HDTV signals drmed & HDMI drmed they can't, & if they wait too long Apex & similar will saturate the market before they can make their first dime.
Coursedesign wrote on 1/26/2007, 2:50 PM
My Sony DVP-NS75H uprezzing DVD-player sends out a very clean 1080 HD signal on its HDMI output, but there is no HDCP in the signal, as evidenced by the HDMI to DVI connector adapter I am using.

Of course this is not an original HD signal, but there is nothing inherent in the signal/connector that requires HDCP.
aussiemick wrote on 1/26/2007, 3:21 PM
Farss,

Does this quirk of down scaling the image from the V1 and then the signal is up scaled by the TV if you have your rez re- scaled to 1080, cause any problems with the resultant video in the form of quality.
Sounds to me if this is getting all a bit ridiculous and 95% or more of the consumers would not have a clue as to what is going on.
Companies need to be careful they don't wrap this so tight that it suffocates itself in the quest for ultimate control.
Mick.
nolonemo wrote on 1/26/2007, 4:12 PM
Protection has already been cracked for both HD formats, though I'm not sure if this gives a complete bypass to DRM issues.

http://www.slyck.com/story1390.html
rmack350 wrote on 1/26/2007, 6:25 PM
No, Vista will turn yours off while playing an HD title that has a "no play" or "no play except analog" tag.

And then when you stop playing the graphics card comes back. If you were playing the movie in a window you'd have just had the blank playback window sitting in the middle of your desktop.

Since it's unlikely that your computer will have both analog and digital connections to a monitor, it'l be mughty cumbersome to switch your setup to VGA so that you can view the movie (at quite possibly a lower resolution),

Rob Mack
rmack350 wrote on 1/26/2007, 6:30 PM
This is determined by a bit on the HD disc you buy or rent. There are several possibilities but for now most titles will be using the most permissive bit, allowing you to just play the program anyway. The plan is to phase in more restrictive settings as time goes by.

Rob Mack
rmack350 wrote on 1/26/2007, 6:40 PM
Not really cracked yet but they were able to get keys out of some software players for some titles.

If the logic holds true, all subsequent HD titles would include that software player's license on the disc's blacklist and new discs wouldn't play with that software. The software vendors involved are going to have to patch their products. Maybe they'll have to apply new licenses too.

I'm sure a real crack will come along shortly, though.

Rob Mack
Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/26/2007, 10:19 PM
I received my legit copy of Vista Business 32bit in the mail on Wednesday - thought I would give it a serious try and see what all the hoopla was about - All I can say is it is the biggest POS of software I have ever experienced. After 3 attempts at a clean install - it still locked solid on me where I had to do a hard reboot. This coming from a machine that runs XP x64 like a champ - my hard drive was constantly thrashing - it took several minutes to install the USB 2.0 driver for my Motherboard (One that is readily available from NewEgg). The Aero interface is nice eye candy - but after having played with OSX recently, M$ is seriously wanting in the user interface department. It didn't take long for me to get accustomed to the MAC desktop - I actually became more confused from the Vista interface - and this coming from working for several years with computers (Linux and Windows both).

It's a good thing the quad cores have been released - they're going to be needed just to run the bloody OS...
busterkeaton wrote on 1/26/2007, 11:02 PM
I have not been following the Vista thing too closely, but I just went over to Dell Small Business
and saw this.

Note: Some Windows Vista features -- like the Aero user interface – are not available in Windows Vista Home Basic and require advanced hardware, including 1GB of system memory. Check www.windowsvista.com/getready for complete system requirements
Windows® Vista Home Basic [Included in Price]
Windows® Vista Business [add $149 $99 sale ]


So the benefits of Aero are not even in the home software, so that's $100 right there, and then you need more memory and probably a faster video card. Where's that bottle of New Coke, I keep around here?

The other thing that's annoying is it doesn't seem you can get an XP system. You probably can, but Dell is not making it easy to see how.
billwil wrote on 1/27/2007, 2:20 AM
Wow...there are so many things I want to comment on from this thread, but alas, there is never enough time, so I will stick to replying to the original post and link.

This article is, in my opinion, an extremely uninformed, emotional, and agenda-driven piece. Several people have noted inaccurate statements, and the general tone is one of immaturity (again, in my opinion).

I can summarize the issue like this (no emotion or ethical commentary here...just facts): Content owners are worried about theft of their property, so they withhold much content until they feel comfortable releasing it. To feel comfortable releasing it, they work with producers of possible channels of consumption (set top boxes, display devices, computers, etc.) to devise an anti-theft system which reduces the ways in which consumers can interact with the content (DRM). To play the content, the consumption channels must comply with the technical restrictions (DRM). Over time, the amount of restriction as well as the strength of the anti-theft measures change, usually increasing on both counts. Consumers can choose to continue to do things the way they've been doing them, or embrace the newer content (to an extent...depending on technology support duration, but the content production and distribution industry tends to have long technology life-cycles...i.e., you can still buy players and content in the VHS format, some quarter century after the format was released).

Okay, now my commentary. Whether or not you think studios, the RIAA, the MPAA, Microsoft, iTunes (Apple), or the budding Wedding Videographer in your town (or on this message board) is greedy for wanting to protect their content; whether or not you think they are stupid for doing so (i.e. alienating their customers); whether or not you think they are already rich enough, or you think that content “wants to be free” (even though that is technically impossible); whether or not you think these things is completely irrelevant. They own this content, and consumers can choose to buy into this or not (quite literally in most cases).

Now, on to the topic of Vista; Windows Vista is one of many paths to view this content. Microsoft did NOT create, for example, the DRM that is included in HDDVD and BluRay (they contributed, along with many other companies who have a stake in being channels for this content). Ultimately, though, the approval of this DRM and the release of the content under this protection, lies with the content owners. Microsoft had two choices here, essentially; Build Vista to support this type of content, or not support it. They chose to support the content because of various reasons, not the least of which is they hope this is something people like to do with their Vista PCs, so maybe more people will buy Vista to be able to enjoy this content, and Microsoft sells more Vista because it does what people enjoy doing, and MSFT makes more money (evil, right? That’s for another post…). The other choice is to do what XP does, and not support this content out of the box (there are solutions to do this on XP, but these solutions also support the content protection of the formats dictated by they people who own the content). This would have been a valid choice as well, but the very vocal “chicken littles” who are whining about the evil Vista content protection would be whining about Vista not supporting common things (or possibly common in the future things) like playing HD DVD discs.

You may argue that there was another choice, and that is that Microsoft could have defied the studios and other content providers and supported these technologies while making everything work exactly like past content types work (like CDs, which can be ripped completely DRM free, archived, used on multiple devices, and yes, sometimes illegally passed around and, dare I say the word, stolen). Well, think about this for a second. Was this really an option for Microsoft? First, this would have likely been illegal, and I don’t think Microsoft needs or wants any more legal trouble right now. Second, technologically, this would be difficult. Third, and most importantly (at least to me, because I am a free-market guy), this would have damaged the consumer because the content would not be released readily by the content owners (i.e., as stated above, they would wait until a better, more secure DRM was created).

I would like to ask the author why the wrath heaped upon Microsoft (specifically Vista) was not equally distributed to Sony, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Samsung, and all of the other implementers of HDCP and other “premium content” DRM technology. All of these, presumably evil, greedy companies, have snatched your rights right out of your previously free hands by implementing the DRM that the content owners demanded so that they would be able to bring you premium content.

Okay, so do I believe our lives would be easier if DRM were not here? Yes, I do. I would love to easily rip all of my legally acquired content to anywhere I please to be used legally according to “fair use”. I would love to not have to deal with DRM (which is why I don’t typically buy music content online…I buy the CD and rip it myself). I would love it if the content owners were more trusting. I would love it if the consumers of content better deserved that trust. I would love it if every third time I went to my local big box home store I didn’t set off the anti-theft alarm because a nail didn’t get “de-activated” at the register…and I definitely would love it if I didn’t have to pay (through higher prices) for all of the anti-theft measures that every store I shop at has implemented. Get the picture? Very, very few of us steal from the physical stores we frequent, but we all pay for those who do (through store losses, or through the cost of preventing the losses, usually a combination of both). Virtually every physical store has some type of anti-theft cost, and many implement multi-layer approaches that cost a great deal of money (but save a great deal as well). A much, much larger percentage of us (according to both published research as well as anecdotal personal evidence that we all have) steal from the media content owners, so is it really that surprising that they are spending so much time and money on this?

Please, people. Please think this stuff through logically. Don’t react (and more importantly over-react) to every piece of drivel you read from someone spewing on the Internet…including this little piece of drivel (as I’m sure many of you will refer to this as such) you are reading now.

Peace.

Bill~