>you wanted all your needs met by a consumer piece of software.

Well duh. That's why I buy a piece of software.

>The idea that lack of scene detection prevents you from doing your work is ludicrous.

I highly disagree. I am not going to go around in hoops just because an app doesn't have such a BASIC need.

I understand your frustrations, but I am not sure you understand what you are doing, and where your problems come from. I also think that the attitude you display when posting is less than helpful if you want answers.

1/ Editing HDV is still something that most NLEs do only so-so. I use Vegas (not movie studio) and there are several problems with Vegas as well, in the scene detection for example, Vegas doesn't get it right most of the time. Is this a Vegas problem? Not really, since HDV is inter-frame compressed, this is going to be very hard, or impossible, no matter what. The same goes for Premiere CS3 and other $1000 solutions. If the software industry has not yet figured out exactly how do do this with their high-end software packages, you can't expect the consumer end to be *better*.

2/ You complain about stuff that is a non-issue. Why is it a problem that the external capture only captures DV?

3/ Your main problem seems to be the fact that scene detection is not working all that well, and that it is ruining your transitions. I'll get back to in-camera transitions next, but why is scene detection that important for you? Why not just capture as one media file? Why would this be an issue?

4/ You seem to be doing in-camera transitions. Never do in-camera transitions. Ever. Under any circumstance. You are actively messing up your footage doing something that should only be done in post, namely adding effects and transitions. Never use in-camera effects. Ever.

In addition to ruining your footage, an in-camera transition compounds the problem of doing scene splits. Where is the scene split when you use an in-camera transition? Where the transition starts? In the middle? Where it ends? Why is any of the answers to the previous question correct?

5/ Whining about features not in the package (shake removal), and that you knew where not in the package when you bought it, and in the tone of "voice" you used is more than a little bit immature. Why not do as an adult would do and ask for the feature?

6/ Complaining about bugs that are (probably) not bugs is a little immature as well. Yes, there is increase in RAM usage when you add stuff to the bins, but this is because Vegas caches stuff to make it available faster etc. If this cache is managed properly, and for me it seems to be, that is not a bug or a problem. Yes, memory usage goes up, but quite frankly that isn't an issue. Video editing is such a CPU/RAM/Disk intensive operation that the video editing app should use as much available resources as it can to work as well as it can. Increasing RAM usage is only a problem if it continues forever, and I have seen no indication that it does with Vegas or VMS (and I have used them for years).

7/ Oh, and again, since I am replying to a post...
>> you wanted all your needs met by a consumer piece of software.
> Well duh. That's why I buy a piece of software.

Since this is a problem that hasn't been fully solved in any of the professional NLEs, you really can't expect it to be in the consumer NLEs either.

Finally - I have a suggestion for you to make your life when editing HDV a lot easier, and the results you produce a lot better.

After capturing your videos to M2T, convert them to the Cineform intermediate codec at higher quality. This is a codec that doesn't use inter-frame compression, which means that your edits, cuts and transitions will be a lot better than if you edit in HDV directly. Again, this is the nature of HDV, and it applies to ALL NLEs, not just Sony.

I don't know what camcorder you use, but if it is the Canon HV10 or HV20, I'd also recommend reading the http://www.hv20.com/ forums. You can find tools there to batch convert MT2 to the intermediate codec, including 3:2 pull-down (which no NLE supports properly for the HV20 and the Sony HDV camcorders yet).

Terje, before you reply the way you did, please read the WHOLE conversation. Most of the things are explained/fixed now.

I am less stupid that you think btw. And I am a regular on HV20 forums.

Eugenia, dear. Chip on shoulder you have. Consumate victim and persecutor you are.


The Victim & Persecutor

Himanshu,
My version now of HDVSplit is file version 0.7.7.0
It may not have been HDVSplit, I know the combination of HDVSplit & VMS7 was giving me black frames.

So far VMS8 captures nice so no need for me to use HDVSplit unless on my slow laptop. HDVSplit uses very little cpu (I don't preview on the computer screen using split), I use the cams LCD to preview if capturing with hdvsplit.

I'll post if black frames do appear in 8. Many times I capture the whole tape anyway, depends. I usually captured the whole tape because it's mpeg2, just my preference and less problems.

I've never used the HC3's internal transitions, but I have experienced capturing using HDVSplit and the black frames appeared at the end of these split captures after inserting them into VMS7_Plat. Sometimes these extra black frames would cause a crash. I would just perform a splits around & delete, then render to cineform only if I want to do actual editing. Otherwise, do my audio add ons & render a new HDV file. Then create HD-DVD format on standard dvd or an avchd disk using other software.

I've also found that black frames can be tape errors, the program will start a new file and would continue capturing. I now mainly use HDV tapes or the Sony Premiums and have had no problems capturing with version 7 or version 8.

The program that searches for black frames doesn't run on windows.

4eyes,

Thanks for the info. I captured one tape with HDVSplit including scene detection/split. Imported a few clips in SVMS v6 and I haven't seen a rogue black frame yet. For comparison I captured part of the same tape with VLC and split the result with HDVSplit. What was good to see is that the clips of matching scenes were exact, byte-for-byte! Tells me that the raw capture is the same, and also that HDVSplit does a pretty good, consistent job at splitting.

Based on your experience with SVMS8 and some it's feature set, I am going to upgrade to SVMS8 Platinum. Maybe I'll be able to capture straight from SVSM8 Plat and not have to use HDVSplit/VLC.

Thanks.

> Terje, before you reply the way you did, please read the WHOLE conversation.
> Most of the things are explained/fixed now.

I liked the article on persecutor/victim. It was interesting and you should read it. I did read the whole thread, and I therefore skipped jumping on some of the topics covered by others that you had answered. The questions I asked I felt, but I might have been wrong, were not addressed by your responses. I also tried to include some general advice.

> I am less stupid that you think btw. And I am a regular on HV20 forums.

I did not, at least until this message, think you stupid. I am not quite sure where you got that idea from. If I offended you in any way, please be specific as to what. If it was just that you felt that someone trying to help you and explain what to do and not to do was offensive, grow a thicker skin please.

>I liked the article on persecutor/victim. It was interesting and you should read it.

Problem is, it doesn't quite represent me. I am a software/hardware reviewer/developer by trade writing for a popular tech site (over 200,000 pageviews per day). When I find flaws, it is my job to report them to my readers. While the Vegas purchase was a personal one, leaving behind my "reviewer" hat is not easy. Bugs, flaws, inconveniences etc in any product piss me off beyond belief, and the main reason for that is because in my days i had to put up with lots of crappy products for reviews. My "acceptance" level of products is now low, after 7 years in the trade. Especially when I shed my own cash for a product (as opposed to reviewed items sent to us for free), I want it to work without problems. I don't mind small problems, but things like missing HDV scene detection, is *unacceptable* for an "HDV-advertised" product.

Eugenia, do you understand what long-GOP mpeg-2 means? How it differs from DV compression? Do you understand that not having scene detection doesn't prevent you from editing your project any way you want? In terms of missing features or bugs, it's pretty minor for an editor. Perhaps in your trade writing for a popular tech web site, you can do a comparison on exactly which NLEs work well with HDV, which of them do HDV scene detection, both consumer and pro software. Enlighten your readers.

By the way, "piss me off beyond belief" is exactly the language the persecutor/victim would use

Give me a break, doctor. Stop thinking that you know everything about me just because Vegas works FOR YOU.

I DID try Pinnacle, Premiere and Ulead before I bought Vegas. Guess what, all worked with scene detection except Vegas. I am not going to split a 40 GB file a gazillion times. I need the scenes to be split automatically. I WANT that from the software I use. It is a MAJOR feature for me, because it's been a feature in ANY NLE I ever used in my life. The reason I got Vegas was because Pinnacle was buggy, Premiere stopped working after a few loads (known bug) and Ulead was too basic. So, I ended up with VMS.

No matter what you say, this is a fact: Vegas pro 7 had five updates and VMS had *ZERO*. To me, this shows that Sony doesn't care about VMS. It's a throw-around product. And this is why it never got updated to get HDV scene detection as Pro did.

So, stop that "persecutor/victim" patronizing bull, and view this product with a more objective eye. Sony COULD have fixed some of the issues in the nature of a free update, but they didn't. Instead, they released VMS8 and everyone has to get an upgrade. Excellent.

And drop it altogether, will you? I BOUGHT VMS-8, so my issues are resolved. I don't care about VMS7 anymore. That box is already in the garbage because it simply did not do what I needed. It was a bad purchase as far as I am concerned.

No matter what you say, this is a fact: Vegas pro 7 had five updates and VMS had *ZERO*. To me, this shows that Sony doesn't care about VMS. It's a throw-around product. And this is why it never got updated to get HDV scene detection as Pro did.

No, it doesn't mean that Sony doesn't care about VMS - if they didn't, they would likely not be putting out new major releases on such a regular basis.

What it means is that you didn't pay the "price of admission" - putting out intermediate releases is expensive and it can consume a lot of engineering time. Users of VMS simply have not paid for the same level of support that users of Vegas have. Intermediate releases along with additional features are the 2 reasons that Vegas is more expensive than VMS.

If you want to get the same support level in terms of intermediate releases that the users of Vegas have, then my suggestion would be to upgrade to Vegas.

--Scott

This is preposterous. I have never heard of a software release, one that costs $130 no less, to not release updates when there are known bugs! Mac OS X itself is TIMES more complex than Vegas Movie Studio. It costs the SAME money to buy. And there have been OVER 10 updates. Same goes for other software of that price range too.

What you just wrote Scott, is really making me angry and shows me how partial you are. Because you take Sony's side unfairly. It is the CONSUMER's side you should be taking. When someone buys Vegas Pro he/she buys it for the added pro features, NOT the right to get bug fixes.

My God!!!

This is preposterous. I have never heard of a software release, one that costs $130 no less, to not release updates when there are known bugs! Mac OS X itself is TIMES more complex than Vegas Movie Studio. It costs the SAME money to buy. And there have been OVER 10 updates. Same goes for other software of that price range too.

What you just wrote Scott, is really making me angry and shows me how partial you are. Because you take Sony's side unfairly. It is the CONSUMER's side you should be taking. When someone buys Vegas Pro he/she buys it for the added pro features, NOT the right to get bug fixes.

My God!!!

Please understand I do not wish to be offensive in any way by these comments, so please do not reply intending to pull me into this debate, I will not respond.

With that, here's my comment, take it or leave it entirely as you decide:

Eugenia, continue your complaint with Sony customer support. If Sony customer support does not give you a satisfactory answer, then consider dropping the product. The people in this forum absolutely cannot solve your concerns, so a continued debate from both sides on what Sony should or shouldn't do will accomplish nothing but to raise anger levels.

There is no need for name calling, character portrayals, or "fightin' words" on either side. It accomplishes nothing here.

Hopefully we will see focus turn back to constructive, problem-solving discussion, which is the purpose of these forums. Certainly that kind of focus is why I continue to return here.

Have a great day!

> so a continued debate from both sides on what Sony should
>or shouldn't do will accomplish nothing but to raise anger levels.

I told everyone to drop it, to not reply to this thread again, but they continue to do so and they leave me little room.

From my point of view, most of the problems are solved: I bought VMS 8.

Eugenia
I want to thank you for the entertainment that you have provided these last few weeks. It was like watching a soap opera and I was anxious to see what happened next. I plan on e-mailing this "series" to a friend of mine that has been out of town and tell her to get some popcorn, a beer and sit down and enjoy reading....

Thanks, again...

lcdrdan

LCDrdan, you won't achieve what you are trying to do.

It is my belief that at least one software update should have been released. There were many bugs and limitations that were still applying to VMS, but were only released for Vegas (which share the same source code btw and so an update could have been easily released for VMS too). If you think that this is something so incredibly out of line, by all means, the popcorn will be on me.

As for HDV detection and playback speed, I am also defending my position. When a video can't keep up on playing back while no filters/effects have been included on it, while something as cheap as iMovie can without ANY problems, then this shows me a terrible software architecture underneath Vegas. You can defend Vegas as much as your heart desires, but it is shameful to drag n drop HDV clips in the timeline, hit "play" in the DRAFT preview window and drop frames like crazy. Actually, using more dynamic RAM only helps a little, not much.

You can all Vegas die-hards can try to make all this sound laughable, or try make me look over the top, but I stand by my opinions and my standards on how I need software to perform and work. My criticisms are similar on other software products too, not just Vegas.

I won't reply again to this forum thread. Too bad there is no locking feature. Feel free to have a party here, I won't read it anymore.

Eugenia
Don't go away mad....I was just tryin to thow a little humor into this thread. Despite all the back and forth comments, I'm sure you have a lot to contribute to the forum. I am just a begginer and haven't gotten too sophisticated in my productions, but I value the comments of everyone in this forum and have leaned a lot.

Please come back....I know you can contribute a lot.

lcdrdan

I just can't help myself.....

Did you see? She was first the victim of Sony's bad product and when that didn't win her the sympathy she was seeking, she immediately revolved around the triangle to the persecutor role.

Always predictable. Always has to have the last word.

We did leave her little room.