VP19 very early thoughts

eikira wrote on 8/18/2021, 9:15 PM

While we still are waiting for the serial to arrive, many of us are using the trial version.
First of all i dislike that the purchase of the stand alone version is now a bit hidden in the shop and that the upgrade to VP19 is 120 USD, i will not go into further detail why i dislike it, but i assume many know why that is to be disliked (could have saved 30 bucks...).

VEGAS PRO Edit

10BIT EDITING: To the software itself. Well i am not impressed and hyped like many here. The performance is not drastically improved. I will admit, that finally i can PLAYBACK footage in 32bit mode to see 10bit footage. At least half resolution... but as soon as i apply a simple filter of any kind, there is no realtime playback anymore. I would understand it in 4K but its only half resolution of it...

Dynamic RAM: I am also absolutely not impressed with the acclaimed 'way better and superior' performance with the new dynamic RAM, i literally see no difference with it back to VP16 at all, and i had 4 different high end PCs so far over this time. Not only that, but it reinterdruced me back random frames from the timeline and or freezes...

VEGAS HUB: cant say anything about it. Since i watch closely every software communicating with the internet with 'simplewall' i will not open up random Windows Edge sub executeable apps.

Adjustment Tracks: Now this one i like. It probably makes some edits now more possible than before. Make the Adjustment Track a parent of, lets say 3 child tracks, group them and you have a better seperated editable experience, it may even solve the problem of making in some occasions nested timelines. I welcome the Adjustment Tracks!

Nested Timelines: Well i hoped they could be achieved now more in likes of Adobes way, but no, still to messy for me. I never was very into nested timelines. Althought the idea would be so good, but how to handle them is not so great. Mostly if you have to handle Full Range and Limited Range footage and the nested timelines are being handled by Vegas as if the whole timeline is one footage it can mess up your mixed timeline and apply either one or the other. What i mean is, you have to keep track and be very careful what you have in the nested timelines.

Refreshed UI: Not much has changed, but the subtle changes are good. I like that the track colors are now more visible on the track/footage itself. Which makes it a bit easier and faster to spot which track you have to select or which event etc. And many icons are more visable and clear now.

Artificial Intelligence: Well its a gimmick. I dont think it was needed and the time spended on the AI hype could have been invested in other things. Sure a few people will have their fun with it, but so far none of the AI features really seem to have a benefit for the broad editors-pool. Not to mention, that if you are in 10bit colorspace, forget playback. I think if its not exactly what you wanted, you will have 0 use for that AI stuff.

HDR: Still keep my fingers away from HDR. Since its connected to 10bit colorspace to take real advantege of HDR and the performance is not what i would call good, i have no need for it. But i say for anybody who wants it and has the proper equipment from start to finish, its always good to give options and new features. And since there is no clear cut one standard that is usable and will be displayed on every monitor/display/tv, and if you are not producing an on demand deployed movie, i think its a waste of time to put much effort into it, only to confront a viewer with your content who has the "wrong" HDR in his device.

Color Grading Panel: I am split on that. It seems the performance and the reactivity of the color wheel panel is way better now, that i like a lot, which probably now i will try more often, maybe. Also that it has the ability to clearly display where the range is in the RGB Parade and Waveform. But i would have liked a preset option, like select accurate 0-235 or 16-255 or the same on the 10bit scale. And that is one point why Vegas is different, it measures (still) many little things in the colorworld from 0-1, and that part i dont like, and here is still the same... why.

What still has not changed and makes it look in those parts like its still Sony Vegas Pro 8 or so...: The Mediagenerator. Especially the Gradients... half of that stuff there looks like it belongs into 2004 at best. But what annoys me really is 'Titles & Text', not the part that many of the presets look like childplay, i am ok with that, it can be on varios projects helpful and funny to use some of them. But that it has not advanced into a real adult tool to create quality titles. Here a simple example what i want. A tool that look visualy high quality meaning no alising and some small ability to make it look somehow 3D'ish. Also an adjustable box around it would it make possible to create simple and fast lower thirds. I may miss that option for such a box (like Adobe Premiere offers and it works flawlessly) and somebody can point me to it, but for now i would have to either use NewBlue Titler, for simple lower thirds..., or enable the background on the text event, and mask it. That means if i change the text, i have to adjust the mask.

 

Overall my very early thoughts are, meh, ok, some small things are good, many things are there, and some things are still bad. So far, its not worse and nothing can compare with Vegas Pro in the cutting department and grouping events etc. But i say, Vegas Pro also dont compare to performance of lets say Adobe Premiere and Davinci Resolve, they take 4K footage and you can bombard them with effects, colorchanges and transitions and still are able to playback in realtime. Next time spend really time to go deep on those things and dont waste to much time on Deep Learning AI stuff, just because its hipp and trendy at the moment...

 

 

My Machine:
Gigabyte X570 Aorus Ultra
AMD 5950X
Palit RTX3080 GamingPro
64GB DDR4 3600MHz
Windows10 Pro

Comments

fr0sty wrote on 8/18/2021, 9:45 PM

Could have saved $30 on what, vs. buying the bundle that also included VEGAS 18?

Artificial Intelligence: Well its a gimmick. I dont think it was needed and the time spended on the AI hype could have been invested in other things. Sure a few people will have their fun with it, but so far none of the AI features really seem to have a benefit for the broad editors-pool. 

The AI upscaling is hugely useful for me, and many of those who produce narrated content are loving the AI text to speech, especially those who need to translate their content to other languages. The other 2 AI effects are just visual toys for many, though I now make money converting old black and white home movies to color as well, so that is actually useful for me too. I did have a music video project going using style transfer as well.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/18/2021, 9:50 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

lan-mLMC wrote on 8/18/2021, 9:58 PM

The fundamental reason is that Vegas Creative Software is a small company and it doesn't have resources to constantly add new things to Software like what Apple, Adobe and BlackMagic Design do.  

RogerS wrote on 8/18/2021, 10:03 PM

For AI, not sure if that's connected to the impressive text to speech but if a corresponding speech to text (i.e. creating a transcript or captions for video) is implemented, that will be a massive timesaver for people doing documentary and interview work like myself. The release notes also hinted at translation, and while I don't know what it means if it's related to that and helps with captions in multi-languages I will be amazed.

For dynamic ram preview, not crashing and glitching my renders is something I've asked for and waited for for years.

eikira wrote on 8/18/2021, 10:15 PM

The fundamental reason is that Vegas Creative Software is a small company and it doesn't have resources to constantly add new things to Software like Apple, Adobe and BlackMagic Design.  


For what exactly? That is a way to big general statement, because its not like i just talked on one thing. And in somewhat it contradicts itself because i also said instead of spending much time into AI stuff, why not spend just a bit more time on lets say the ability to create simple lower thirds? Can you be more specific why your argument is just overall valid and has a point... i mean to what exactly.

For AI, not sure if that's connected to the impressive text to speech but if a corresponding speech to text (i.e. creating a transcript or captions for video) is implemented, that will be a massive timesaver for people doing documentary and interview work like myself. The release notes also hinted at translation, and while I don't know what it means if it's related to that and helps with captions in multi-languages I will be amazed.

Yeah... well forgot to mention, i have VP Edit, so no Speech2Text here for me to test. But sure, i agree, if that AI could do it correctly, its a huge timesaver for people. But do you need AI for something like that, its not like other companies have done outstanding good software for Speech2Text or viceversa. But maybe its outstanding and i just cant test...

For dynamic ram preview, not crashing and glitching my renders is something I've asked for and waited for for years.

That is good for you. Maybe an update will bring me also to this wonderful world of stutterless playback with Dynamic RAM preview.

Steve_Rhoden wrote on 8/18/2021, 10:16 PM

eikira, Well yeah those are your thoughts, a long list of ramblings actually.

They are not what Magix Vegas Pro 19 brings to the table.

eikira wrote on 8/18/2021, 10:32 PM

eikira, Well yeah those are your thoughts, a long list of ramblings actually.

They are not what Magix Vegas Pro 19 brings to the table.


You sure about that statement?:

Feature list:

  • VEGAS Hub
  • VEGAS Content (for VEGAS 365 Users)
  • Blackmagic RAW (Beta)
  • Color Grading Panel work updates
    Range-limited color wheels
    Color Picker
    LUT presets for both Camera and Look LUTS
    Split mode for Color Curves
  • Artificial Intelligence
    Upscale and Zoom plugin
    Text to Speech  (for VEGAS 365 Users)
    Arbitrary style transfer
    New style transfer presets and models
    Improved Colorization model 
  • Automatic Scene Detection options
  • Scene Detection OFX plug-in
  • Adjustment Tracks
  • HDR
    HW encoding for HDR presets
    OpenColorIO 2.0 support 
    ACES 1.2
  • Updated Pre-render workflow
  • Dynamic RAM Preview improvements
  • Hub Explorer (for VEGAS 365 Users)
  • Refreshed UI
  • Project Notes
  • Timecode-aware notes
  • Header color selection
  • Labels
  • Import of Mocha data into Motion Tracking panel

Those are the release Notes. I pretty much talked about half of the stuff that "Vegas brings to the table". Or what exactly do you mean by that phrase? Also do i have to be a super hyped Magix Vegas Fanbody so that its not "ramblings" in your eyes? Or at what point is it a valid critic of features of a software? Has it to burn down my desktop and only then its ok to not hype something?...

RogerS wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:05 AM

Yeah... well forgot to mention, i have VP Edit, so no Speech2Text here for me to test. But sure, i agree, if that AI could do it correctly, its a huge timesaver for people. But do you need AI for something like that, its not like other companies have done outstanding good software for Speech2Text or viceversa. But maybe its outstanding and i just cant test...

For dynamic ram preview, not crashing and glitching my renders is something I've asked for and waited for for years.

That is good for you. Maybe an update will bring me also to this wonderful world of stutterless playback with Dynamic RAM preview.

There are other programs using AI for transcription. YouTube does a credible job at this. IBM has had tools for years, and other services have their own computer and human assisted versions billed at $/minute. Having this integrated into Vegas (i.e. not having to send hour long interviews to YouTube and back just to get text) would be a big deal. I will be reporting back when/if such a feature is added!

For dynamic ram preview I see no difference for editing (except when actually creating such previews). My comment was on rendering, not playback.

fr0sty wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:20 AM

Dynamic RAM preview isn't intended to make playback better when previewing in real-time on the timeline. It is when you press shift+B, and VEGAS pre-renders frames from the timeline that it cannot play back fast enough to RAM, so when you press play, that section (however much you could fit into the amount of RAM you have allocated) plays back smoothly.

That is how it was supposed to work, at least, but for years, it caused all kinds of other problems that annoyed the hell out of us. For instance, on many Nvidia GPUs, when rendering to NVENC, if your dynamic RAM preview was not set to 0, the render would crash. As I explained above, what DRP does has absolutely nothing to do with rendering, so it shouldn't be causing render crashes, but it did. Another annoying thing DRP would do is cause performance issues if set wrong, or other playback and performance issues if not set to 0. It took them a while to do it, but they seem to have killed those bugs. In the process, they enabled VEGAS to use more than 32GB RAM, which, in cases where what you were doing was being held back by RAM limitations, will improve performance.

In addition to making further improvements to the BRAW and PRRAW decoders to get them out of beta form, they are working on additional performance improvements that will help speed things along to being on par with other apps... and with this new continuous delivery model they have adopted, we won't be waiting a year for a new version to see the fruits of their labor. They are going to start rolling out feature updates regularly. No more saving stuff for the next big version update... There's a reason that VEGAS 19 splash screen does not have the 19 anywhere on it... only VEGAS.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/19/2021, 12:23 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

eikira wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:30 AM

Dynamic RAM preview isn't intended to make playback better when previewing in real-time on the timeline. It is when you press shift+B, and VEGAS pre-renders frames from the timeline that it cannot play back fast enough to RAM, so when you press play, that section (however much you could fit into the amount of RAM you have allocated) plays back smoothly.

I know, but then the playback has to be better for the selected part. And it does not i literally had to use about 8 times the Dynamic RAM preview so that a transition could playback smoothly.

That is how it was supposed to work, at least, but for years, it caused all kinds of other problems that annoyed the hell out of us. For instance, on many Nvidia GPUs, when rendering to NVENC, if your dynamic RAM preview was not set to 0, the render would crash.

That was never a big issue on my machines. It even helped and did not cause random inserted pictures from the timeline, and often enough red filled frames. Now i got them back, for whatever reason... tested with 0%, 5%, 10% and 20%. Also complete freezes on playback and have to restart Vegas... given, it happens not so often it seems but i got them back...

 

 

fr0sty wrote on 8/19/2021, 12:58 AM

Red frames = GPU driver issue. It's VEGAS way of flagging a GPU related error. Try the driver update utility in the help menu.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/19/2021, 12:59 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Yelandkeil wrote on 8/19/2021, 2:46 AM

@eikira

I know, but then the playback has to be better for the selected part. And it does not i literally had to use about 8 times the Dynamic RAM preview so that a transition could playback smoothly.

Maybe, just maybe, your wrong by the operation:

1, the (bottom) videotrack should be the active one

2, if building of D-RAM preview failed, try to clear its cache by drawing a small empty section

3, rebuild the wanted section, e.g. the transition; I never heard you must run 8 times for a D-RAM preview.

Last changed by Yelandkeil on 8/19/2021, 2:46 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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K-LitecodecPack19.0.5 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10 Playback on PC) 

eikira wrote on 8/19/2021, 3:04 AM

Maybe, just maybe, your wrong by the operation:

Sure, maybe.

1, the (bottom) videotrack should be the active one

Actually no, there is, at least according to the manual no need for that, beside it made no difference in my case.

2, if building of D-RAM preview failed, try to clear its cache by drawing a small empty section

Its not failed, it just needed many attempts to put everything in cache. Failing would mean it would not do it at all or would give me an error. According to the manual this is the way:

  • Clearing the cache or turning off dynamic RAM previewing:
    To clear the RAM cache during playback, you can resize the Video Preview window or choose a new setting from the Video Preview Quality drop-down list.

Your method works in that way that its not clearing but replacing it with new black frames, which one can consider as a work around and is a valid method.

3, rebuild the wanted section, e.g. the transition; I never heard you must run 8 times for a D-RAM preview.

Well there is for everything a first time.

 

Red frames = GPU driver issue. It's VEGAS way of flagging a GPU related error. Try the driver update utility in the help menu.

yeah... no thanks i dont want to go back to old drivers and again new ones in a few days back and forth.

fr0sty wrote on 8/19/2021, 3:26 AM

Nobody is asking you to go back to old drivers, you're being asked to update them.

eikira wrote on 8/19/2021, 3:58 AM

Nobody is asking you to go back to old drivers, you're being asked to update them.

Which would tell you, that i am probably on the newest one already and thats the reason why i said going back to the old one?

 

Grazie wrote on 8/19/2021, 4:00 AM

@eikira - In an attempt to assist you in getting VP19 up to speed, please, like @fr0sty and many others, and myself, post your VegasPro Rig specs in your signature.

eikira wrote on 8/19/2021, 4:02 AM

@eikira - In an attempt to assist you in getting VP19 up to speed, please, like @fr0sty and many others, and myself, post your VegasPro Rig specs in your signature.


No need to, its in the initial thread comment.

fr0sty wrote on 8/19/2021, 4:07 AM

Nobody is asking you to go back to old drivers, you're being asked to update them.

Which would tell you, that i am probably on the newest one already and thats the reason why i said going back to the old one?

 

If I wanted to make assumptions about what you are thinking, it might, but I tend not to do that.

As for "newest driver", there are multiple types of drivers. Are you using the most recent Studio driver from Nvidia? Game Ready is not recommended.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Grazie wrote on 8/19/2021, 4:15 AM

No need to, its in the initial thread comment.

@eikira - So, when I read any of your posts, here or anywhere else you may post, I’d need to come here, having previous knowledge it would be at the top of this Thread, to read your Speccs? It so so much easier for those wishing to assist you if your Speccs we’re actually in your sig.

eikira wrote on 8/19/2021, 4:27 AM

No need to, its in the initial thread comment.

@eikira - So, when I read any of your posts, here or anywhere else you may post, I’d need to come here, having previous knowledge it would be at the top of this Thread, to read your Speccs? It so so much easier for those wishing to assist you if your Speccs we’re actually in your sig.

Thank you, but at no point i asked for any assist or said i have a problem or you need to solve anything. If i have a problem, i will post my actual setup. The only reason i posted in here is so people could see that hardwarewise there is no system requierment issue and people can relate my machine was at least not so slow and that my thoughts to the new vegas are not realy limited by my PC capabilities.

fr0sty wrote on 8/19/2021, 4:28 AM

But they could be by your PC configuration, which is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. As I said, red frames equals a GPU problem, we need to figure out why you are seeing those.

eikira wrote on 8/19/2021, 4:38 AM

But they could be by your PC configuration, which is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. As I said, red frames equals a GPU problem, we need to figure out why you are seeing those.

The issue is for sure GPU related we know that. In VP18 i did not had that behavior the last 4 weeks, no matter which driver. Well i also did not use any Dynamic RAM preview, which should not be connected with it anyway, but in the past in VP15,VP16 and VP17 the freezes and red frames were removed to with Dynamic RAM preview set to 0 so i only got them a few time after that. VP18 was in that regard behaving very nice to me. There is nothing to be solved here, its just an information what has come back with VP19. And if i disable the GPU Acceleration below, this is even completely gone in VP19 too.

fr0sty wrote on 8/19/2021, 11:25 AM

In every case I've seen regarding red frames, a driver update solved it. If you know you are using the latest STUDIO (very important) driver from Nvidia, NOT game ready, then that's something we need to know about so we can report it to the dev team as a bug that is not able to be fixed with a driver update.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)