VV Bug with frame snapping & markers?

Shredder wrote on 11/29/2001, 10:13 AM
Hi,

It appears that if 'Quantize to Frames' is turned on, and you add a marker on a frame boundary (in the trimmer), the EXACT location of where the marker is added depends on HOW you got to the frame boundary.

If you click on the frame boundary with your mouse, or step to the frame boundary with the cursor keys from the right, it behaves as expected.

If you step to the frame boundary from the left with the cursor keys and then drop the marker it seems that it actually gets dropped a FRACTION after the boundary, potentially screwing up your editing (which is how I found this, I had errors on my scene boundaries with overlapping). This 'fraction' isn't visible at all even if you zoom in all the way.

To prove this try the following:


Test 1
------

Turn 'Quantize to Frames' on to ensure that you're snapping to the frame boundaries. Create a generated media solid color (red) for exatcly 5 frames.

Then create a yellow 1 for exactly 5 frames and snap it to the right of the red clip.

Render this (I did as NTSC DV) 10-frame Red-Yellow clip. RRRRRYYYYY

Now import the clip into the trimmer.

(Quantize to Frames should still be still on)

click on frame boundary 00:05 with your mouse (don't use the cursor keys!) and press 'm' to drop a marker.

Select the left clip (00:00-00:05) and drop it onto a video track starting at 00:00. Press ctrl-end to go to the end of the clip. In you preview window you should see black (since there is no frame 6) - You get exactly 5 frames of red and nothing else.

Now delete that clip from the track. Go back to the trimmer & delete the marker at 00:05


Test 2
------

In the trimmer drop your cursor at 00:07 and use the left cursor key to move you to exactly 00:05 and drop the marker. Move that left clip to a video track and go to the end -- you'll see black again, exactly the same as before.

Now delete that clip from the track. Go back to the trimmer & delete the marker at 00:05


Test 3
------

HERE'S WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING:

In the trimmer drop your cursor at 00:03 and use the right cursor key to move you to exactly 00:05 and drop the marker. Move that left clip to a video track and go to the end -- THIS TIME YOU'LL SEE YELLOW!

The only reason this can be is if the marker is extending even a millionth of a second into frame 6.

This is really wierd.

So, is this by design & documented or is it a bug? Has anyone else found this or had problem with bad edits?

Either way it's a pain in the butt to now have to think about how you got to where you were before you drop a marker. I don't know about you, but I think there should be 1 standard behavior regardless, so that a marker at 00:05 is the same no matter how it was dropped. (or have a different type of marker, pointing left/pointing right)

Thanks,

- Jon

Comments

pelvis wrote on 11/29/2001, 9:23 PM
Perhaps you have indeed caught a bug. Are you seeing problems with rendered video or otherwise running into trouble because of this?
Shredder wrote on 11/30/2001, 5:31 AM
I am indeed seeing problems with rendered video.

I often re-edit existing footage that already has edited scenes. This might be a movie, tv show etc.

I then drop markers at the frame boundaries of each scene so I can then go in and yank out as much of an individual scene as possible:

Source: AAA|BBB|CCC|DDD|EEE|FFF
( | is a marker)

Edit: EEEAAACCCBBBDDD

The reason I found this is that upon inspecting my rendered video closely to the frame level, I realized that many of my edit points has somehow shifted a frame to the left, and I was getting single rogue frames at many edit points:

EEEfAAbCCdBBcDD (The rouge frames are lower case)

This has a strobing effect on the video where your brain picks up on the lack of continuity & it makes you feel uneasy. (Not to mention it looks sloppy)

I've had 3 projects ruined by this and now I have to go back and re-edit making sure that each marker gets dropped by the mouse or by moving the cursor to the left, BUT NEVER TO THE RIGHT!

I wish someone from Sonic Foundry would comment on this. What more can they ask for? I tracked down a reproducible bug.

arrgh!
SonyEPM wrote on 11/30/2001, 10:00 AM
We are looking into it-
Shredder wrote on 11/30/2001, 10:07 AM
Awesome! Thanks for being attentive.

I'll just keep left-cursoring until you fix it!
Shredder wrote on 12/4/2001, 8:08 AM
Now that I know about this issue it shows up all the time. I have to be very meticulous in how I edit to avoid problems. -- This is driving me crazy!

Any official status update from Sonic Foundry?
SonyEPM wrote on 12/4/2001, 8:22 AM
A Vegas Video update is currently scheduled for mid-January, and we'll try to work in a fix for that update.
SonyEPM wrote on 12/4/2001, 8:29 AM
Shredder- try this: If you are using NTSC DV source material use the alt+arrow keys to navigate (rather than just left or right arrow)- this insures that you always move by a whole frame.
Shredder wrote on 1/8/2002, 8:01 AM
Any word on when the update will be released & if this issue was fixed?

Thanks,

Jon
Shredder wrote on 2/28/2002, 7:04 AM
Can someone from SF confirm that this bug was fixed in VV 3.0a?

Bug Details:
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=83363&Page=0

Thanks,

Jon
SonyIMC wrote on 2/28/2002, 9:03 AM
Yes it was fixed. Go get the update...
Shredder wrote on 2/28/2002, 5:59 PM
Awesome! You guys rock!

Thank the Product Managers & Engineers for putting in fixes that really solve customer's pains.

That's why I love you guys...

- Jon