Use Macromedia's "Fontographer" to convert the Postscript font to Truetype?

jimwoodruff, thats what im doing only i use the new fontlab 4.5. but thats not the point, i cant see why sofo cant support postscript fonts. are there legal issues in it? maybe between adobe? and yeah, satish is busy making the premiere to VV plugin utility. and he can only do so much. :D

Not sure why SOFO doesn't directly support it, but I know that Windows is notorious for crappy Postscript support. Of course, PS was created specifically for the Mac platform and has always been part of its way of handling output (both screen and print). Whereas, Truetype was created for Windows machines and specifically for screen use.

Not an answer for your question; but an acknowledgement that I feel your pain ;-)

It is extremely disappointing that Postscript fonts remain unusable throughout Vegas 4 and DVD Architect and in my humble opinion it demeans the whole application.

> Use Macromedia's "Fontographer" to convert the Postscript font to Truetype?

Fontographer hasn't been developed since 1994 and is useless in a world where OpenType is the emerging standard. FontLab 4.5 (which brey is using) is an excellent tool but converting accurately from Type One fonts to TrueType is still a non-trivial task and FontLab only supports Postscript based OpenType fonts. I'm surprised you think it's OK for Sonic Foundry to ignore the standards and expect users to go to such lengths anyway.

> Whereas, Truetype was created for Windows machines and specifically for screen use

Neither of these statements is true. TrueType was developed by Apple and licensed to Microsoft. The first operating systems with TrueType support were System 7 (1991) and Windows 3.1 (1992). TrueType is superior as a font for on-screen display but there's nothing deficient about the technology when it comes to printing; it's just that Postscript workflows are predominant.

I'm not a professional programmer but I understand there can be certain limitations at the API level when it comes to using Postscript fonts in Windows. I don't know whether these persist in Windows 2000 and XP (where support for Postscript fonts is built into the operating system i.e. Adobe Type Manager isn't required) but even if they do there have always been ways around them. How many programs do you use where you can't use TrueType and Postscript fonts interchangeably?

To get to version 4 and still not recognise this deficiency is incredible.

I have found Fontographer to be very useful, even if it is a older program. I also find that I haven't had a need for Postscript fonts in my video projects. There are plenty of Truetype choices to make my clients more than happy.

Sorry about stating "untruths" about Truetype being developed for Windows and specifically for screen use (maybe I had it confused with Microsoft's "TrueImage"). I have been using both mac's and PC for years and I first noticed Truetype being used on PC's.

i think postscript was developed by adobe for the mac. but who knows? LOL! i just wish they did something to support postscript. i mean, every commercial font i have is mostly postscript! and the text tool in VV4 is the same thing. no change at all!

OH COME ON! Some of you are going off the deep end...

I wanted the following features and didn't get them either in version 4:

1. A cap you put on your head, connected via firewire that reads your brain waves
automatically doing all editing by you just thinking about what you wanted to do.

2. full holographic support.

3. ability to burn full DVD's in one minute by simply inserting your index finger in the disk hole and holding it up to your computer screen and clicking, make DVD.

4. audio plug-in that will make a web connection at the click of a button to the symphony orchestra of your choice in New York, Boston or Chicago and record you a royalty free orignal song track for every new project you start.

Well maybe in the next verision. <wink>

Postscript was not developed for the Macintosh -- it was specifically designed to be cross-platform and os agnostic.

In fact Apple did not support it natively until OSX, much like it was not supported natively in Windows until Windows 2000.

Jonathan

LOL!

All right ... here's my take on the matter.

I've got 909 truetype fonts installed on my system. How many do i use? Well, not counting the "happy birthday" banners i make for people at work, probably about 5 of them. This isn't because i'm not creative enough to explore. It's because words are there to convey information, and fanciness usually doesn't help. Most fonts are extraneous fluff that don't help get the message across.

This is true in print. Now moving to video, the situation is even more extreme. My inkjet printer is 600dpi. On an 8" high landscape page, that's 4800 pixels high. Video is only 480 (at least for NTSC). That's only 1/10 the resolution, and only 1/100 the pixels per area. Most fancy fonts are fancy because of fine details and details are going to be much less precise in video. In addition to the loss of resolution there are other effects such as interlacing, tri-color phosphor patterns, tape dropout, signal loss, old televisions, etc. Generally what's necessary in video for maximum impact is plain bold fonts. A large selection of varied fonts becomes much less meaningful in video because of this. In fact, anything fancy is often harder to read.

For the few cases where you want large titles in a specific style to help set the mood (the title for the Lord of the Rings movies comes to mind), this is more artwork than typing. At this point you would use software designed for creating artwork. I don't see this as a job for video editing software and i can't fault Vegas for not including such features. There's pleny of other programs for creating beautiful text. In fact, when something specific is needed, i often don't even use fonts. I'd like to create something unique and special for my clients, so i'll usually create the lettering from scratch. That's what being creative is all about.

Or to look at it another way:

In Real Estate, the three most important things are location, location, location.

In web page design, it is content, content content.

In video its much the same thing. You can have all the fancy fonts in the world, and all kinds of wiz-bang transitions, 3-D effects, surround sound and other bells and whistles, but if your subject is boring or you editing sloppy, NOBODY is going to watch and basically you're just wasting your time and you may as just as well take up basket weaving.

Ooops... I forgot all about Postscript. I had a postscript printer once. It was built like a tank and almost cost as much. If I sent something out to a commercial printer that would at least use 1200 DPI the fancy postscript fonts looked, well fancy. On a computer monitor (82-96 DPI) or in video, not that much better, the fancier the font, the more muddy it looks at small font sizes.

It seems as soon as SoFo adds new support for something, somebody always wants something else. Human nature I guess. If you must use fancy fonts, I suggest you use a vector based application like Corel Draw to make them. Then even at smaller sizes they won't look so fuzzy. Text generated the normal way just don't cut it at small sizes for the reasons Kelly already noted. And Postscript support for a video editor? Nah, ain't going to happen.

I used to have a problem with this. I was doing work for a large corporation and they had a set of corporate fonts of course. the format they provided them in was PostScript. I had to do all my titling outside of Vegas. just about every single application on my system could use PS fonts so it seemed kind of cheesy that Vegas couldn't. now they provide me with both TT and PS versions so it isn't as much of a problem.

It was a pain at first because so many of my older projects used the PS versions and now I had TT versions installed for Vegas, so I tried installing both and Windows really didn't like that. I don't know if it's still a problem, but it used to be.

Chienworks said:
I've got 909 truetype fonts ... How many do i use? ... probably about 5 of them.
And I wouldn't be surprised if two of the five accounted for 90% total use. That's the situasj around here.

But like I've said in a number of posts before, the text generator in Vegas can be used not only for text, but also for symbols, dingbats and stuff which can be satished and fxed till the cows come home. Then you'll want many fonts. Or you'll want to start making your own.

Tor

"There are plenty of Truetype choices to make my clients more than happy." (jimwoodruff )

Perhaps neither you nor your clients are particularly discriminating. Unfortunately almost none of the fonts I ever use are available in TrueType (very few of the major type libraries are). Rather than finding 'plenty' of choices, my experience is that though one might trawl through thousands of faces, it's often extremely difficult to find anything ideally suitable for the purpose. I've spent the last week wrestling with a client over the ideal width to use with a particular multiple master font (not for use with Vegas, for obvious reasons).

"I wanted the following features and didn't get them either in version 4:

An ignorant response. Do you actually know anything about Postscript fonts? Would you think it acceptable if the only image format Vegas supported was .bmp? You wouldn't think it at all strange if the only audio import format was .wav or only 8 bit? Have you not noticed that in other applications fonts just work, whatever the format?

"I've got 909 truetype fonts installed on my system. How many do i use? Well, not counting the "happy birthday" banners i make for people at work, probably about 5 of them. This isn't because i'm not creative enough to explore. It's because words are there to convey information, and fanciness usually doesn't help. Most fonts are extraneous fluff that don't help get the message across. (Chienworks)

We had this conversation back in April and you had 909 fonts installed then. If you haven't had to add a font since then either you haven't set any text or you have no discrimination. How many of those 909 did you choose and how many were dumped by application installers? How many of them have old style figures or small caps?

For some reason you always go on about 'fanciness' as though a Postscript font is more likely to be more ornate than a TrueType font. In my experience if someone is going to use an inappropriate font it's much more likely to be the person who simply uses whatever they find installed on their computer than someone who's bought a particular font especially.

To pre-empt the usual response, I am not worried about the occasional full screen title so Photoshop is not the answer here. My frustration is that the Text and Credit Roll generators are practically useless.

"Generally what's necessary in video for maximum impact is plain bold fonts"

I have no idea what 'plain bold fonts' may be. The fact that there is such a class of typefaces for you suggests that our typographic requirements don't overlap very much.

Can I suggest that you take a look at Robert Bringhurst's 'Elements of Typographic Style'? You generally don't seem to have such blind spots. There are many things I would dispute with Bringhurst but it's a useful introduction.

"It seems as soon as SoFo adds new support for something, somebody always wants something else. Human nature I guess." (billyboy )

The question is not so much why hasn't this been added but why was something so fundamental ever omitted? Not 'human nature'; practical need. People have been asking for this for a long time and it's hardly an idle whim.

"If you must use fancy fonts, I suggest you use a vector based application like Corel Draw to make them. Then even at smaller sizes they won't look so fuzzy. Text generated the normal way just don't cut it at small sizes for the reasons Kelly already noted."

I am (nearly) speechless. You clearly don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about. And 'fancy fonts' rear their head again! Says a lot more about you than me.

On the subject of small point sizes, of course if one could use Postscript fonts one would be able to use multiple masters or OpenType opticals to help out...

"just about every single application on my system could use PS fonts so it seemed kind of cheesy that Vegas couldn't" (cheesehole)

It remains 'kind of cheesy that Vegas' can't. Please don't go soft on this cheesehole.

The one feature that I personally needed from Vegas 4 is missing and I am extremely frustrated.

So much saracasm and so much time spent poking fun at others. Vegas's titling feature is weak, just as weak as anything that comes stock with AVID MEdia Composer or NT Express. I know this because we have those AVIDs at my day job and had to buy 3rd. party titling software (title dekko Pro etc.)to make even slightly "fancy" titles (as seen on the news etc.). However, our main home money maker is a Pinnacle DC1000DV which does have Title Dekko Pro. Yes I am truly disappointed that VV4 does not have better titling capability.

Peter

well premiere supports PS fonts. and its stupid to make all your titles in another app. its just inconvenient. its bad business. and you people who think fonts i have are decorative and stupid looking fonts, then you're wrong. just look at the type foundry sites in the net selling their fonts, they look cool and very distinctive. one thing i learned from a famous design book is never use standard fonts like arial or times if you can. it makes it look like sooo 70's. typography is an important part of everything. including video. especially presentations which require text.

it is definitely still cheesy that we can't use PS fonts (and I mean in a bad way). I can't use 90% of my font collection in Vegas. what's frustrating is that the titler is pretty cool and it's such a shame that it's crippled by the missing PS font support. I only get to use it for work related stuff because they happened to provide me with a True Type version of their corporate font.

"Perhaps neither you nor your clients are particularly discriminating."

Are you so damn frustrated that you gotta make this personal? You don't know the first thing about me or how discriminating I am. And as far as my clients go, they are the people paying the bills -- if they want PS fonts in their projects, then they get PS fonts. I just use one of my other video production apps (like Speed Razor using Inscriber's "Titlemotion") or I convert their PS font to TrueType using Fontographer. This topic is about being disappointed that SOFO hasn't included PS support for Vegas and from a quick read of your other posts to the SOFO forums, you are VERY disappointed.

I'm neutral on the idea and that appears to piss you off.

But, if SOFO decided to add Postscript support I certainly would not get on my soapbox and proclaim "PS support in Vegas? Are you guys crazy?! Take it away!" That would be ridiculous. Now, if I was offered a better character generator or access to PS then I would take the CG.

BTW - Do you have a web site where I can see how PS fonts can make my not so discriminating productions better?

The only thing I have on my site right now is a sampling of my 3D work, but you are welcome to check it out:

http://www.cox-internet.com/woodruff

...try Movie Maker 2 from Microsoft...they support everything...

Yo Jim! I couldn't get your site . . . up! Really would like to be able to see your work. Hey ho - the web is slow tonite! I'll wait - yes?

Best regards

Grazie

"So much sarcasm and so much time spent poking fun at others" (pb)

So many ignorant posts. Why defend them? No fun for me I can assure you.

"well premiere supports PS fonts. and its stupid to make all your titles in another app. its just inconvenient. its bad business." (brey)

I agree. I have no problem with having to prepare some things elsewhere sometimes but for routine work and prototyping it's ludicrous.

"never use standard fonts like arial or times if you can"

Neither is an intrinsically bad design but there are few kinds of text for which I'd even consider using them. The problem I have is that if I'm limited to TrueType, I only have the four fonts of Times installed with Windows (none of which have small caps or old style figures) instead of the other thirty-two (plus) I happen to have. When it comes to Arial/Helvetica I probably have a choice of more than a hundred fonts.

"it is definitely still cheesy that we can't use PS fonts (and I mean in a bad way). I can't use 90% of my font collection in Vegas. what's frustrating is that the titler is pretty cool and it's such a shame that it's crippled by the missing PS font support."

Thank heavens for that. I thought you'd thrown in the towel! Let's hope we'll get some sort of statement from someone at Sonic Foundry.

"I'm neutral on the idea" (jimwoodruff)

Well why on earth bother to post then? Any statements that suggest to Sonic Foundry that the current situation is remotely OK are very damaging as far as I'm concerned.

"You don't know the first thing about me or how discriminating I am...Do you have a web site where I can see how PS fonts can make my not so discriminating productions better?"

Hoist with his own petard. NO-ONE IS SAYING THAT TRUETYPE HAS ANY ADVANTAGE OVER POSTSCRIPT IN THIS CONTEXT. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF FONTS ARE NOT AVAILABLE AS TRUETYPE. The reason that Postscript fonts might improve your productions is that without them one is unlikely to have access to expert sets. I would regard these as an essential part of the discriminating typographer's toolkit. You don't seem to see any need for them at all... Quod erat demonstrandum.

"...try Movie Maker 2 from Microsoft...they support everything..." (ClipMan)

Thanks for the referral. I'll have a look at it. This is interesting from the point of view that Microsoft applications (particularly Publisher) didn't used to be able to use TrueType and Postscript fonts interchangeably in all circumstances. This problem now seems to have been completely overcome.