While I agree that more communication is not just necessary, but inevitable, I'm not in total agreement with several of the posts.

On the one hand, we have the love-in, started by yours truly, as illustrated in this clip:



On the other, we have the "whippings will cease when morale improves" version illustrated by JohnMeyer.

I wouldn't want to work in either environment.

If you don't think SCS feels any pressure to improve their product, you'd be wrong. If you think they'll only respond to hugs and gum drops, you'd also be wrong (there's nothing worse than a consequence-free environment to stifle creativity, and productivity).

I'm not sure what SCS' resources are, but I know that it's a full-time job if you were to have someone involved in each of the threads on here (if not more since they'd need to be a technical expert, an excellent communicator, and have the patience of a saint).

A blog would be nice...just updates on issues, explanations of said issues and how they come about, a recommended hardware list would all be welcome. I suspect there isn't more conversation simply because the competition is also watching.

As an example, CS6 is coming out this year. The headline? Darker interface and some of the RAW editing controls will be available. Wow. Really? A darker interface (like most of their other products) and technology they already own? You can bet there will be some mind-bending magic-like features like content-aware scale and fill that will be new, but they're not about to tell anyone what they are until the software is pretty much baked. It's how Adobe has stayed dominant.

There is PLENTY of communication going on, and clearly SCS is listening with updates and new features. (not making judgements on the success of those things, just saying they ARE hearing what's being said).

So we have channels to talk to SCS: the forums, customer service tickets etc. I don't think communication is the problem. It's the form of communication, namely, conversation. Conversation is new to most businesses. When I'm producing pieces for clients, I begin every initial meeting with "a video is generally a lecture - we need to make it the start of a conversation and that demands more post-video effort on your part." When clients get it, they REALLY get it. And when they don't, I know it'll just be another video.

I think what's interesting is that RIM, though in trouble in the market's mind, has already made a huge leap forward with its new CEO. The first thing Thorsten Heins did when he was appointed, was place a call to the #1 fan site (crackberry.com). Later in the week he granted an interview to the site, and provided some specifics on product timelines and plans. That was stuff that would only have been leaked by the previous co-CEOs.

I'm absolutely not saying that SCS needs to replace it's CEO. I'm saying it absolutely needs to reach out, regularly, with it's core userbase, and by extension all its users.

A website is a channel to communicate. If we're laying on the whip and being an evil taskmaster, I don't agree - and I don't think it's the role this forum community actually plays (or should play). If we're asking for a conversation, and to be (or at very least feel like) part of the product's development, then I'm all for it.

Andreas,
Great points, and you're definitely keeping in the spirit of the "middle ground."

"You can bet there will be some mind-bending magic-like features like content-aware scale and fill that will be new, but they're not about to tell anyone what they are until the software is pretty much baked. It's how Adobe has stayed dominant."

I can't speak for Premiere, because I haven't given it a look for a few versions, but in the case of After Effects, I'll say they have done a great job of providing what users wanted and needed.

"There is PLENTY of communication going on, and clearly SCS is listening with updates and new features. (not making judgements on the success of those things, just saying they ARE hearing what's being said)."

I'll have to take a closer look at the "features" that have been asked for by users and how they've been implemented..
Totally agree with your call for SCS to reach out regularly, in the way of a blog, newsletter, anything.

ok, well for starters i would like to propose some ideas for how SCS could help us all by communicating better. Define communication: its a two way process. Not just a notice of new release or listening without any response. Two way.

It could be just a dream, but i am going to throw these out anyway.

1) As Andreas S said, a blog would be great. Leaks of forthcoming updates etc.
2) A public web page: A list of all current logged issues, with current status listed next to it and a brief description of the issue eg. V11 crash on exit, reports = 10, status = In Progress, Reproduced "yes" or "no".
3) a news letter for forum users. Kind of a monthy "whats happening at SCS"
4) A representative from SCS to be appointed to talk with us on the forum. Think Jetdv (from NewBlue) style comms, Jetdv is actively responding to questions. Thats excellent PR and really usefull. Other third party plugin reps are also on the forums helping us. perfect. Add a SCS guy to do the same.
5) Hardware page: List known good setups. However SCS cannot be seen to endorse equipment manufacturers, its company policy. So how about US posting our working system specs on this page. Particularly GPU cards. Hosted by SCS.
6) Software page, same as 5 but software related, OS and including plugins.
Just as a side note, its hard to gather information from these threads when you want to know something like "whats the best setup, im confused".. Its hard because of the many threads with many ideas of what is good. A dedicated page for this would help. Tested systems get recommended, and maybe even tested by SCS with comments (without endorsing a product).
7) A radical idea... Release the next major version as a Beta, for free, before it goes for general sale. We then get to comment, bash, crash, give feedback to the product before its released. Say.. 2 months before official release? we get the beta. Then when it is released, it 'should' be in a better state than the current release model where we basically buy the beta. This is a similar model to Microsoft Windows.
8) my personal gripe.. respond to SCS tickets quickly . Its damaging to be left in the dark. It leads to anger and sometimes false or negative information being spread.


Paul.

Walking the middle path -
================
Even with a title like that no one from SCS decided to post a comment.

I remember back when the complaints started on this forum that SCS people would only participate in the forum when a new version was released and then disappear until the next version came out. That followed consistently active participation in the forum all year.

Now they don't even participate after a new release even when there are MASSIVE problems as with Vegas 11.

Pretty sad.

John

"Now they don't even participate after a new release even when there are MASSIVE problems as with Vegas 11."

To my knowledge, outside of a forum for PS3 gamers, this is the only forum which Sony provides for any of their products. They have specifically stated that this forum is for peer-to-peer communication and that's the way it has operated since Sony took over from Sonic Foundry. Perhaps it is against Sony policy to publicly put a human face on the corporation. Personally, I would like to see SCS have the level of online support that David Newman personally provides for his Cineform customers but I don't think that's part of the Sony culture.

Sony is very concerned about their image and if some of these negative threads continue, for example where ErikD is advocating forming a lynch mob in an attempt to force SCS to release an update to a previous version, they will surely shut this forum down. I don't want that to happen. I was one of this forum's more outspoken members and I changed my ways when I was suspended last year and I was privately informed by the forum moderators that Sony was breathing down their necks to shut the forum down and that they would have to if the tone around here didn't improve.

Perhaps if ErikD wants to continue his likely futile crusade, maybe an third-party forum like the Vegas section at DVINFO.NET might be a better place to do it. In fact, if SCS does ever shut this forum down, I suggest we all meet there.

On the other, we have the "whippings will cease when morale improves" version illustrated by JohnMeyer.Yup, that's me all right. It probably explains why I'm fond of another great quote from the movies (I quoted "The Third Man" earlier), this one from "Ben Hur" as the captain of the slave ship explains the situation to the new slave, Judah Ben-Hur:

"We keep you alive to serve this ship. Row well and live."

And, of course, everyone's favorite from Dantes:

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here ..."

All this can be explained by the fact that I was brought up in a home dominated by German culture, and was read to, at an early age from a "children's book" called Struwwelpeter which featured the following picture depicting what would happen to you if you were naughty and sucked your thumb.

Here is a link to posts from just the forum administrator alone. If you click through them you can see that as you go back the number of posts increases. And that's only one person on the team.

They definitely used to participate more and that made a lot of people feel better when they were having problems. Sure there were complaints after every release, but this truly has set a record. A little interest on their part would go a long way.

In terms of shutting the forum down because people are complaining about the software they bought. I am not sure that would be grounds for it. Not logically anyway. Attacks on other forum members that get out of control increasing in frequency would be however. That's probably what they were referring to.

This is a peer to peer user group and that benefits SCS because there is always someone ready to help (yourself included). But none of us can help when the complaints about a new release are this high. We need them to respond to that.

John

I heartily agree with every you said (John "Craftech") and the way in which it was said.

Ditto, ditto, ditto.

JohnMeyer, I have that very story book. Growing up in a teutonic house (Mein Vater war in Ostpreussen geboren, und meine Mutter auf Helgoland geboren). Na ja. So so. :-)

I'm very much a feet to the fire guy by instinct, but in this case I think the desire to open channels of communication is going to be more productive.

Again, pointing to RIM, even Mike Lazaridis (former co-CEO) he was granting interviews about stepping down. Heck, he never granted much in the way of interviews when he was co-CEO, so the culture shift is taking root there (and it desperately needs to).

Maybe someone needs to create a crackberry.com kind of environment (blog, news, etc) that is a touchstone for SCS to communicate through. Having run a very large and very public website for more than a decade, I understand the dynamic of "duty" ascribed to corporate sites. It's a balancing act. When involvement only needs to be occasional and can be handled via a respectful third party a la Crackberry.com or any of the mobile nations sites, I think there's some potential.

Being a man of action, I'm game to try. Of my many hats (which I still wear as a media contractor) I was a journalist. I could try reaching out, create a site, and see where things go...or does anyone have any better ideas?

AndreasS, johnmeyer,
I have much sympathy for the kinds of nightmares you must have endured as children. ;-)
Perhaps the idea for a separate site for initiating communication would help. As much as I appreciate Sony's hosting of this forum, I have to admit, if I were a moderator, it could feel like walking into machine gun fire. And it could be difficult to engage in communication with some of the more upset folks while still maintaining whatever "rules of engagement" the management may have while holding to the information they are allowed to give. And yes, those rules may be a good part of the problem.
Truthfully, while not wanting to restrict the communication allowed on this site, I sometimes wish for a separate, heavily moderated site that stuck to technical issues and solutions, with the emotion left out. Cow seems to do a pretty good job of it, but I've never gotten the depth of answers there that I could from this forum.
I'm glad people are considering new ways to communicate more/better and just PRAY that someone at SCS sees that we're trying and responds.

Venturing waaay off topic. I recall growing up to the tales of http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17161/17161-h/17161-h.htmMax und Moritz[/link] My father and grandparents emigrated from Hamburg in the 1920's. Hadn't even thought about this for years, but as I scroll thru that link, I can recall most of those illustrations from my youth - 60 years ago.

...Jerry

Jerry, ha, i just showed that link to my girlfriend who is from Germany. She knows all these stories. All i can say is - what a horrific childhood these people must have had!!
Killing chickens and tripping a guy off a bridge to his death - blimey.... and this is for kids?

No wonder the forums get heated so much :)

Paul.

And my wife doesn't want me to let the kids watch Dexter. Hmph. Soft Americans.

Right, so back to my Teutonic roots...to the point:

Since no one is volunteering, are we all agreed that we should start forming an online community a la mobile nations for Vegas / SCS? Anyone have an idea for a clever domain. I'll buy and set up a site and then do my best to reach out to SCS and see if we can start communicating, and evangelizing a little more for them.

Or am I blowing hot air?

Max und Moritz Ah, German class 1967 (from memory):

Ach, was muß man
Oft von bösen Kinder
Hören oder lesen
Wie, zum beispiel
Auch von diesem
Welches Max und Moritz heißen.

Wow, I just checked, and I got about 90% of it right! Can't speak a word of German, but I still remember that.

Thanks for the memory ...

I think the translation is, loosely: "Oh, what we often have to hear or read about evil kids. As, for example these ones, known as Max and Moritz."

"are we all agreed"

There you go again, speaking for everyone...

We already have a forum. Several, actually. One is here, one on the Creative Cow, and others that I rarely log onto. There's even a blog titled: "sonyvegassucks". Your attempt to start another one will likely not achieve much of a following.

And, to what end?

SCS set this forum up as a peer-to-peer forum. They have a hands-off approach to this forum. What makes you think they would treat a forum off the company website any different? That's not to say that SCS doesn't monitor the posts, at least in aggregate to spot trends. Expecting SCS to assign someone to respond on the forums for free when he or she could otherwise be answering questions from customers paying for support doesn't sound like a smart business decision.

"are we all agreed" is a question, he ended it with a question mark. Please check.

"Expecting SCS to assign someone to respond on the forums for free when he or she could otherwise be answering questions from customers paying for support doesn't sound like a smart business decision."

Wrong - its an excellent idea. Its called PR and can be justified in terms of money by helping the customer base. This spreads good will and good vibes around the product which in turn SELLS more units.

Paul.

I can only assume some have a strong need to be right or to make sure others are wrong. I don't think any who want more communication are necessarily expecting it, but it seems only right to try. If a non-Sony forum that's respectful and information (rather than opinion) oriented has a possibility of succeeding, I'll sign up.

It's quite possible that there are no strong lines of communication between programming, support, and marketing. If any of these departments come to realize that there is benefit in communication, on any forum, it's progress

Another reason I'll add that an off-site moderated forum may be a step in the right direction: Given the wide user-base and relatively low price of the software we have a large range of users in both age and experience level. A lot of threads begin to read like a hateful Facebook page or comments for a YouTube fail video. Kudos to Sony for allowing freedom of speech and emotion, but some of these threads I wouldn't want to touch either if I was SCS.

Its good to try but in the end, in relality, I do not believe any of this thread will make any difference. This whole thread was about improving communication, well here we are only communicating amongs ourselves. I do not see SCS entering the discussion.
And for that reason, i am not going to post on this thread anymore. No hard feelings i hope, just enough said from this guy. Made my points very clear. And thats enough. Good luck SCS on your communication skills in the future. You may need them.

Paul.

Paul, I'm with you (I think). I'll start building a platform and I'll see if I can build some bridges. That's all we really want to do. It's a little like the sistine chapel with God and man touching...but it's all about "reaching out" after all.