With hardly knowing the technical differences between the two formats, I always thought that Blu-Ray had a cooler name. And it has been proven in studies going way back that the <35 y/o crowd buys into a name ahead of anything else. It's the buzz factor.

However, the current crop of consumers is wiser and more cautious. See the next article on the same site for an explanation of why most buyers are taking a "wait and see" approach, as I (as a much older consumer) have also. For me, the move from VHS on an interlaced CRT to DVD on a flat panel so affected me that I am quite content to wait for the bones of this current (but hardly the first) format war to be picked and buried before I make yet another major purchase. My first VHS was $800, my latest DVD player was $53 I think.

well considering there have been HD DVD exclusive titles out there now for almost a year compared to barely nothing for BD, its a welcome announcement that we'll at least see Matrix trilogy on BD. As for now, its a case of downloading MKVs and converting for BD, which is something noone wants to do if their an avid movie collector like myself

As for HD DVD, personally i think the concept would have worked, but Sony will begin pushing PS3 upon the death of the PS2 in March or was it may. In any case, the PS2 will be discontinued soon enough

I really think there is room for both. Unlike the VHS/BetaMax wars in the 70's when you physically could not play a VHS in BetaMax machine and vice versa. Today you can already buy players which will play both formats just fine. Eventhough a bit pricey, but that is only a matter of time before that is fixed.


Ted

The HD DVD camp has too much invested to just fold up and call it a day.

I don't think so. The HD DVD camp is Microsoft and Toshiba. Tosh is losing a ton of money right now, and calling it a day is a good business decision. There simply isn't any upside for them to continue.

Seems odd that they would make this decision with those numbers. If it was 80-20, then that would seem more appropriate.

Actually, it is precisely because it is close that Warner had to chose. If there already was a clear winner, say an 80-20 ratio, there was no reason for Warner to take action. Sounds odd? It isn't.

Currently the consumer is sitting on the fence when it comes to HD disk formats. They simply do not want to chose, so they chose none, neither Blu-Ray nor HD DVD. This means that both formats lose the war. Warner, being format neutral, is the only company that can change this stalemate. With Warner going Blu-Ray exclusive, buying the war is over. There simply isn't any counter move that the HD DVD camp can come up with. This means that the war is over, and that more consumer will come off the fence. Stalemate is over, people start buying into the HD on disk.

This is why Warner went Blu. They had to end the war. Everybody would benefit. Everybody who wants a disk-based HD delivery method anyway.

Business wise there was no way that Warner would ever go HD DVD exclusive, even though a lot of people in the HD DVD camp thought they might (to the tune of about $300 million according to rumors). Going HD DVD exclusive would have prolonged the war since it wouldn't give us a clear winner. That would only hurt everybody in the industry, including Toshiba and Warner.

Sadly I am sure Toshiba will continue to push the HD DVD format for another while, hurting both consumers who (through ignorance) buys into HD DVD and Toshiba.

"Sadly I am sure Toshiba will continue to push the HD DVD format for another while, hurting both consumers who (through ignorance) buys into HD DVD and Toshiba."
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Toshiba has helped much more than they have hurt. The prices have fallen to the point that they have BECAUSE of Toshiba.... and I hope it continues (from THIS perspective anyway).

blink:

Actually, this is probably not the case. Prices fall with competition. In the Blu camp there is actual competition, in the HD DVD camp that was not the case. Tosh were in reality the only ones building players. If your assumption was correct, DVD players would still be extremely expensive since that is only a single format.

Now, how has Toshiba prevented the prices from falling? Well, assume that Tosh has contributed to the slow up-take in HD disk formats. This is not at all an unreasonable assumption. The fact that there is two formats means that the consumer in general is not buying into HD disks. This means slower sales. Slower sales means less advantage of economics of scale. This means higher prices.

The best thing that can happen is that the format war ends and that consumers buy into an HD disk format as soon as possible. This means economics of scale come into play. This also means more (not less) competition. Everybody wins. Even Toshiba, once they start building good Blu-Ray players.

"Actually, this is probably not the case. Prices fall with competition. In the Blu camp there is actual competition, in the HD DVD camp that was not the case. Tosh were in reality the only ones building players. If your assumption was correct, DVD players would still be extremely expensive since that is only a single format."
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Ahh yes I see your point. Tosh players are so cheap.... beeeecause..... they're competeing with themselves.... and Sony built a cheaper Game console for the same reason.

Right.... Ooooookay.

Getting a little silly aren't we?

Look, I agree this war has to end. I want to get on with enjoying hi def more than anything else. But the war has given us a few things and one of those things is lower prices at a much faster rate. That simply can not be debated... it's a fact... point blank.

Anyone who thinks Warner wasn't paid off is incredibly naive. The HD-DVD forum was apparently going to announce Warner and FOX where going HD-DVD Exclusive at the CES today, and it looks like Sony simply outbid Toshiba et al at the last minute. This has nothing to with Technology, this has everything to do with who is prepared to payoff with the biggest cheque.

I think it's time for a class action lawsuit against Warner. They have totally misled the public. They supported the Hd-DVD push and provided the largest number of titles. They are the holder of 18 patents related to Hd-DVD. They made the public think it was ok to buy HD-DVD. And now that have back stabbed the public to the tune of a half billion dollars, they should have to pay. A good settlement would be the offer of straight across trades for Hd-DVD versions of Warner discs for equivalent BozoRay version, plus deep discounts on BozoRay players.

It's time these bozo's be stopped from taking the public for a ride. Warner can switch if they want, but all the cost should be borne by them not the public. I think there is very strong grounds here as well for an AntiTrust investigation both in the US and the EU. Don't be suprised if they are some legal proceedings that happen and this all end up in court. The ideal situation would be all companies forced to release in both formats and the public can decide which they want.

The reality is in the long term dual mode players will make the format choice irrelevant. The sooner they come down in the price the sooner the war will be irrelevant.

The best thing the public can do to hurt the companies who committed this backstab and ripped off the public is just to continue what they have been doing - DON'T BUY EITHER FORMAT until these companies learn to put the customer first and they all learn to place nice together. DVD+R and DVD-R made nice, so can these bozos.

What last minute decision are you taking about?
Warner was making this decision in early December 2007 to stop making movies on hd-dvd.
If I remember correctly it was they thought Blu-Ray was the superior format for the future.

First thing people want to do is sue.

Actually with all the hype on the internet, articles, forums, comments, new casts, TV ad's, the people and editors mislead the people and themselves.
If there is or was a war then someone has to win & someone has to lose.

Blu-Ray was better from day one, Sony made the burners, media and software with the burners for authoring & playback. At least Sony backed their format so we could use it.

"Warner was making this decision in early December 2007 to stop making movies on hd-dvd."
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Not true.
Fox and WB were in talks with HD DVD on the idea of going exclusive HD DVD. Something happened (don't know what) and Fox pulled out... WB followed shortly thereafter. That's why this is such a huge surprise to HD DVD. It was not at all in the cards... at least not now anyway.

There are some that believe FOX was playing Agent Provocateur in this game. There must have been some laws broken here. At the very least the public has been taken for a ride. I hope Toshiba is looking at legal action to make them pay.

Ahh yes I see your point. Tosh players are so cheap.... beeeecause..... they're competeing with themselves

Sigh. Are you dense or just pretending? I am sorry, but I have to ask. If HD DVD won the war there would, currently, not be any competing products out there. That would change, but it would take a while. In the Blu-Ray camp there has been competition from day one.

Getting a little silly aren't we?

No, just using my brains before I talk. I recommend it.

But the war has given us a few things and one of those things is lower prices at a much faster rate.

No, it hasn't. The Blu camp has clearly ignored the price dumping from Tosh and they have not followed suit. Since Blu-Ray is now the format we have to accept as the winner, all the price dumping in the world from Tosh has no effect whatsoever on the price of HDM players.

The price pressure in the Blu-Ray camp has come exclusively from Blu-Ray competition. Otherwise we would have seen sub $200 players a long time ago.

That simply can not be debated... it's a fact... point blank.

Un-debatable facts "exists" only in the minds of the extreme religious zealots. The rest of the world is more than happy to debate most things.

Both formats are doomed.

HD DVD is clearly doomed with Warner abandoning camp. But Blu-Ray is doomed too. Anyone who thinks the PS3 is going to save the day better think again.

Let's just see if the Matrix shows up on Blu-Ray. If it doesn't then Warner is just treading water.

The HD-DVD forum was apparently going to announce Warner and FOX where going HD-DVD Exclusive at the CES today, and it looks like Sony simply outbid Toshiba et al at the last minute.

This rumor existed only on AVS I think. It had nothing to do with reality as far as it looks from the real world. WB had clearly made a decision quite some time ago to go Blu exclusively, at least in early December. A Warner executive misspoke and WB had to paddle.

Going Blu exclusive was the only rational move for WB. Any other move would prolong the format war indefinitely and that would have hurt everybody, Blu and HD DVD alike.

It was a sound business decision. The only pay off I have heard of, and that one doesn't sound unreasonable, was that WB got a good deal on Blu printing. Given the fact that they have, by a pretty decent margin, the largest library out there, this is not an unreasonable thing. Big players always get good deals.

Talking about a class action law suit is just childish. There was no back stabbing and nobody was mislead. Grow up please.

"Sigh. Are you dense or just pretending? I am sorry, but I have to ask. If HD DVD won the war there would, currently, not be any competing products out there. That would change, but it would take a while. In the Blu-Ray camp there has been competition from day one."

"No, just using my brains before I talk. I recommend it."


Debating is fine, BUT you don't have to be an ASSHOLE about it and call people dense or imply it. What you really sound like is those little Macolites who tout everything Apple while spitting on everything else.

As I have said here many times before, I guarantee you would not speak like this to anyone in person as you do on this forum otherwise you would be swallowing a few teeth there Mary.

"Un-debatable facts "exists" only in the minds of the extreme religious zealots. The rest of the world is more than happy to debate most things."

He who lives in glass houses my friend.....

"This rumor existed only on AVS I think. It had nothing to do with reality as far as it looks from the real world. WB had clearly made a decision quite some time ago to go Blu exclusively, at least in early December."

Oh, so you were there in the meeting? Didnt think so.

Furthermore, if you claim this decision was made in December, why was Toshiba all set for their HD DVD meeting to announce the pick up of WB AND FOX but that it changed the night before? Seriously, you are a moron if you think that Toshiba and the HD DVD group showed up to CES already knowing it was doomed with WB going the opposite way, HENCE the late cancellation.

There will be lawsuits and there will be some concessions made. Whether it is to the consumers who are injured from this or to patent holders remains to be seen.

Fox and WB were in talks with HD DVD on the idea of going exclusive HD DVD. Something happened (don't know what) and Fox pulled out... WB followed shortly thereafter.

The HD DVD camp has been courting WB for a long time about going HD DVD exclusive, and WB never bought into it. Given the fact that Blu WB titles outsold HD DVD WB titles 2:1 and more was probably an important factor. More importantly, WB know very well that Disney and Sony was not going to go HD DVD for a long time, which meant that going Blu was the only rational alternative. They didn't need $500M to come to that decision, it was self evident to anybody who is able to analyze the market place for about five minutes.

Sources with clear insider knowledge leaked on the net two weeks ago that WB would go Blu exclusive first week of the year, the same source also stated that WB would continue to release the announced HD DVD movies through May. He was spot on, but missed the announce date by a few days. He came back yesterday and stated that the reason he missed the announce date by a few days was that Toshiba had asked for yet another meeting with WB to push HD DVD, apparently with some really nice incentives. WB ignored it.

As a side note I find it refreshing that WB has decided to honor its promise to the public by releasing announced HD DVD titles. This is in stark contrast to what Paramount did when they took their thirty silver coins and wend HD DVD exclusive, instantly cutting off their announced Blu titles. Hats off to WB for this, and coal in the socks of Paramount executives.

The main problem for HDM is not that there is a format war, well, not directly, it is the fact that the public isn't buying into either format right now. The main competitor for Blu is not HD DVD neither is Blu the main competitor for HD DVD. The main competitor, and they are winning by a rather significant margin right now, is SD DVD. The only way to win against DVDs is if you get one format. Going HD DVD exclusively would have made that take another three to five years. Now there is one de-facto standard HDM format, and the public can get off the fence.

Everybody wins.

Warner goes HD DVD exclusive with Disney still in the Blu camp, the format war lasts until 2010 at least. Given the family angle, Disney is a must-have. Now the format war is over.

That's why this is such a huge surprise to HD DVD.

Given the fact that a Warner executive already in early December misspoke (or perhaps not) and strongly hinted that WB would go Blu, I think the only people who were taken by surprise by this move was people with an emotional investment in HD DVD technology. It was delusional at best.

With Blu out-selling HD DVD 2-1 or better almost every single week of 2007, how on earth would WB be able to justify going HD DVD? In parts of December Blu movies outsold HD DVD almost 4-1. The only "reprieve" came with Transformers and Bourne, and even those were, compared to the hype, massive failures for the HD DVD camp. When Transformers was released it was expected to be a huge success. In its release week Transformers was out-sold by Blu-Ray movies that had been on the market for almost a month.

That is why WB went Blu, incentives or not.

"

It's true. Rumors were leaking at Thanksgiving. Highly placed sources were making comments as early as Dec 9th. Videobusiness published it as a rumor prior to Xmas.
It was published as a foregone conclusion on December 28th.

> Everybody wins.

Spin this as desperately as you want.

Nobody wins!

The BozoRay twits out there that think this war is over are DELUDING themselves completely. This is just another battle in the campaign. The next battle will be in the courts no doubt. I can see Toshiba, Paramount, and Universal all suing Warner for breach. I can also see an AntiTrust suit happening as well.

This is the like the Battle of the Buldge. The latest great offensive of the BluRay Nazis on the road to their eventual defeat. It will even appear like they are going to win, when suddenly they will fail, just like the real battle. The HD-DVD Allies (the forces of goodness) will win in the end, and the Axis Of Evil (Sony-Warner-Fox) will pay through the nose.

Whether Hd-DVD is successful in the long run is unknown. One thing we do know that regardless of what Hd-DVD does, BluRay in the end will fail just like every other proprietary Sony format. Bluray is technically defiecent next to Hd-DVD, has zero interactivity, and no online component, not to mention poor quality picture.

The simple fact that dooms BluRay in the end will the public can't tell the difference between upscaled DVD and BluRay so why buy it.

DVD on the other hand they buy, and pirate like crazy greatly reducing the unit cost. Whether movie studios like it or not, they will not be successful with a new HD format until Joe and Edna Lunch Bucket can make cheap copies. That is what drives DVD sales and rentals. The software to pirate BluRay (or HD-DVD) is cheaply and readly available already. What is not available is BluRay media (or HD-DVD) media that is cost effective. The first HD format that can get it's blank media under $2 will win the war. The biggest benefactor of all the DVD priacy is the Studios themselves.

And let's not forget their are 3 major studios (Universal, Paramount, and Dreamworks) under long term contracts with Hd-DVD so it isn't going anywhere. Plenty of time to sue Warner's butt off.

Cry Tough and Let Loose the Dogs of War.

**I can also see an AntiTrust suit happening as well.**

Antitrust laws are very narrow in their application, and rightly so. Otherwise, we'd have neighborhood chain gas stations in federal court every week over price wars, and mergers would be a thing of the past.

I would be surprised if even the most paranoid, conspiracy-ridden theories imaginable over this move, even if they were provable by some stretch of the imagination, would meet the threshold for consideration under US antitrust laws.

Just because competition is dirty doesn't mean it's litigable.

"The first HD format that can get it's blank media under $2 will win the war."

The HD-DVD camp will need to release a burner before they have to worry about $2 media.