Waves plugs on Master Buss

mudsmith wrote on 11/18/2012, 11:27 AM
Although I am posing a question that comes from problems playing back the audio in a video project, I am a pretty experienced audio-only guy, and wanted to pose the question to other mainly audio folks over here after getting little help on the video forum.

Here is the deal: I have determined through very careful testing that I am receiving real time audio glitches during playback (renders are always glitch free) only when I have a Waves L2 inserted as a plugin on the audio Master Buss.....The system I am using is plenty powerful enough to handle this.......

Although I will be doing a little more testing later today to see if there are other factors connected with this, it is absolutely true that taking the L2 off the buss removes the problem, and putting it back in brings the problem back. The glitches are at least semi-random in placement. All drivers are updated appropriately.

Anyone out there experienced any similar problems? Anyone out there using Waves packages with Vegas?


musicvid10 wrote on 11/18/2012, 8:52 PM
You may not be aware of the fact that in order to real-time preview audio with any effects, the render must occur in real time, unless you pre-render. Little preview glitches are common even on the best of systems, and tinkering with your playback buffers and disabling other resource-eating activity (including timeline waveforms) is often a total cure for what you are experiencing. I assume you are using asio drivers and their settings are not over-resourced.

That being said, it is common knowledge that Waves is resource hungry, and for that reason I don't use them on my more modest physical system.
pwppch wrote on 11/18/2012, 8:54 PM
What version of Vegas are you running? If Vegas 11 or earlier, are you running 32 bit or 64 bit?

Are you using 32 bit Waves with 64 bit Vegas?

What version of Waves?

Is the Waves UI visible when the glitching occurs? does it make a difference if the Waves UI is visible?

If you raise your audio device buffer size, does the problem go away?

mudsmith wrote on 11/18/2012, 9:06 PM
Vegas 11 , latest version (701?), 64 bit for Vegas 11 and and Waves.

UI is not visible during use......

I will try raising the device buffers, I suppose, when I am back in the office late tomorrow.

The L2 is not nearly as "hungry" as many other Waves plugs and it runs glitch free in real time in other audio programs on massively less powerful computers than this one. I am, of course, using other Sony and Izotope plugs on this particular project, but will also check to see if it causes glitches in other plug-free versions of the same material.

Do you have any other suggestions for preference adjustments within Vegas to lower the possibility of real time glitches? Does Vegas not access RAM in the same way as other DAWs because of its special way of handling video?

Does Vegas tend to have problems with Waves?.....It is hard for me to accept that Waves plugs are simply too hungry for Vegas, since these are some of the most widely used plugins for DAW use.....However, if the particular needs of Vegas for processing video tend to make them less useful for Vegas, than I will have to accept that, I suppose.

I am just trying to determine the rules of the road here.....and especially to find out if placing the single Waves plug on the Master is different than, say, applying it to a clip or track.
pwppch wrote on 11/19/2012, 8:07 AM
I don't know what is causing this, that is why I asked the questions. I am trying to narrow down what is happening.

We have had other reports against Waves plugins similar to yours.

What version of Waves are you using?

You should not have to do anything special.

Thanks for the information.
mudsmith wrote on 11/19/2012, 7:27 PM
I am using the latest Waves Diamond package, plus a little video production package.....both the latest versions.

I probably won't get a chance to do any more research until Wednesday.....couldn't get to it today.

I appreciate both the questions and the input, but am just trying to figure out how Vegas handles such things, as there does seem to be a difference between it and other DAWs that is related to the video handling of Vegas.

A large part of the reason I am using Vegas is its ability to do a much better job of working on the audio than other NLEs.....so I want to end up knowing what the restrictions are and what the rules of the road are.

Will give more data as I have it, but will welcome all thoughts.
mudsmith wrote on 11/23/2012, 5:40 PM
I did a little more software cleanup and a few more definitive tests today.

The short project (about 5:30) I had been testing everything with was a video project with FX (Sony color and luminosity correction) on almost all video clips, plus audio plugins on nearly all audio clips. These included Sony compressors and eqs, plus Izotope Denoise ("A", for real time) on about two thirds of the clips.....There are lots of instances of transitions between video clips, title pages with transitions, crossfades between audio clips, level adjusts, a couple of audio track automations running, and many instances of track "channel select" and level adjusts..

In addition, there is a music track consisting, for now, of some 16 bit 44.1 files in this 48k project. This music track runs under most of the project.

I found I was able to eliminate the real time audio glitching with the Waves L2 still in place on the Master Buss only by zooming out all the way on the timeline, thus making it so that the timeline display never paged during real time playback. This worked pretty consistently.

When I was zoomed in, every time the display would go to a new page, there was fairly horrid glitching. Also, at times, moving the cursor around in the timeline display with things zoomed in would cause glitches during real time playback.

I also tested in a different project that is over an hour long with many, many video with audio clips and simple transitions, but virtually no video or audio plugins on any clips. With the L2 on the Master Buss, I could not really create any glitching with or without zooming, or when passing the cursor over the timeline during playback.

So, it is fairly clear that glitching is occurring with lots of plugins and some GUI/display demands going on.

The question then, is this: How can I (or can I at all) set up my Peferences to minimize this problem when working with intensely FXed projects in real time? Again, what are the rules of the road?

I have, in the past, played a lot with the amount of RAM allotted to Preview, and it seems to work counter-intuitively to the way one wold expect.

The computer I am using (systeme #2, 8 core, 16gigs Ram) should handle most ot the stuff I throw at it, I wold think.

I would throw in that some of these issues came up when I was creating the new computer and doing some early tryouts of V12. Although I thought for sure that I had removed V12, a folder still existed on this computer of V12 and I deleted it today, which MAY have helped a bit.

So, again, how can I maximize the combo of real time audio and video previewing on V11 with my setup?
Geoff_Wood wrote on 11/25/2012, 1:30 AM
I don't think anybody asked - you are using you soundcard's ASIO driver ?

mudsmith wrote on 11/25/2012, 8:04 AM
Yes It is a high end Lynx card with impeccable drivers, so.......This card, or another copy of it, has always been the most stable for my most critical mastering work.

I have experienced some oddity in the past when the preferences were shifted to the Windows Media driver and the performance seemed to improve, even though everything was still coming through the Lynx. ??????

This certainly confused the issue even more, but, like I say, there are parts of the whole Vegas setup that I simply don't understand in terms of maximizing real time playback performance.

Yesterday, I tried reducing the video preview resolution and it had either no effect on the audio glitching, or maybe actually increased it. Raising buffers in Vegas seems to increase the problem, too.

When the problem is happening, there are definite glitches when hitting pause, and these seem to be worse when the 44.1 music pieces are playing back within the 48 project. I cannot really find any data on how Vegas handles this SRC. In most other programs, the SRC would simply not work, so I think it is important to understand what Vegas is doing here in order to understand the whole stress being placed on the computer......If this is a source of extreme resource usage, I will convert all these files to 48.

In any case, paging on the timeline always creates large glitches in the situation where glitches occur. The other glitches are more random, but seem to sometimes be occuring in anticipation of the SRC or running into an Izotope plug.....but all disappear when I pull the Waves plug off the master. As I said earlier, the Waves plug by itself does not create any glitches until there are tons of other video and audio plugs in place on clips.

I won't be able to try messing with buffers on my card (as opposed to the buffers in Vegas) until tomorrow. I am concerned that this will screw with the sync between audio and video during real time playback, however. In a straight DAW, raising the buffers for playback only is not a problem, but screws with latency for input while overdubbing, etc. I just don't know about the relationship between video playback and audio buffer delay from the card in Vegas.

The rules of the road are not clear to me in Vegas. They have been pretty clear in most of the DAW programs I have used prior to this.
ChristoC wrote on 11/25/2012, 3:18 PM
How's the DPC Latency?
find a free checker and an excellent explanation at http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
gwailo wrote on 12/12/2012, 12:56 AM
I'm getting very similar problems with v12 64bit

using any 64bit izotope plugin brings on large amounts of stutter when zooming / paging - and worse when there are more events playing at the same time

I've raised up my ASIO audio buffer to 2MB - the highest it will go - Echo Audio - Gina 3G

It improves slightly but it's still unusable

V11 - 32bit
V10 - 32bit

all fine - it's just the 64 bit versions that die with plugins

I can't use V12 until I find a fix for this - Any other settings I should try?
Johnnytrj wrote on 12/14/2012, 11:37 AM
Yes!! I got this problem too!!
Waves plug-in and izopote5 ...have this problem !!
and also become slowly when use audio FX !!
ChristoC wrote on 12/14/2012, 4:42 PM
I repeat,
How's the DPC Latency?
find a free checker and an excellent explanation at www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
All other remedies are useless, unless you have low initial DPC latency in your PC.
gwailo wrote on 12/15/2012, 4:26 AM
the page says, dpc latency checker doesn't work properly with windows8

Let's say, I happened to have bad DPC.

What would I buy to overcome that?

I'm currently using an Intel SSD boot disk, i7 930 processor and 12 GB of ram
my data drive is a Raid 10 with a sustained throughput of about 180MB/s

With this kind of hardware, I'm assuming there must be some sort of software setting.

ChristoC wrote on 12/15/2012, 4:46 AM
> the page says, dpc latency checker doesn't work properly with windows8

True it is unreliable at the moment; however this is the first mention of Win8 in this topic!

> Let's say, I happened to have bad DPC.

The webpage I referred to suggests remedies, .... DPC Latency usually associated with bad drivers rather than bad hardware......
Azirafel wrote on 5/8/2013, 5:37 PM
Hi. I have exactly the same problem. M-audio ProFire 610, Vegas 12. The problem pops up when using external VST effects - Waves, BBE, etc. - it doesn't matter. I've found temporary solution - when I switch to Windows classical driver - everything is ok. But I fear the Windows classical driver is not as good in terms of quality... Interesting thing is when I'm using Vegas 8 with my Windows XP SP3 32 bit, everything is ok.

It's most unfortunate that such good software as Vegas, cannot work properly under Windows 7 x64bit environment.
JHendrix2 wrote on 5/10/2013, 1:18 PM
same here on 2626

thanks for tips...here is what i did as workaround

in vegas: use classic wave driver > raise playback buffering
track buffering and offset for latency doesn't seem to matter for the waves/stutter-glitch playback bug
buffer on profire panel doesn't seem to matter much

UPDATE: only issue now is i am having trouble getting vegas to stick to using the profire in classic driver mode. it keeps reverting to system sound
UPDATE: ok i had to also set output on the track level (never had to do that manually before)...we'll see how i do now.
Azirafel wrote on 5/19/2013, 3:25 PM
Problem solved. I've increased buffer size of my M-Audio to 4096 and now audio is smooth and without glitches. :)

UPDATE: In Vegas 12 64bit I've loaded Waves 32 bit plugins instead of 64 bit ones and... IT WORKS without any glitches at 256 buffer size. I hope that there will be no change of audio quality when I'm loading 32bit plugins in 64bit Windows/Vegas. So the problem is when Vegas 12 64-bit is used with 64bit plugins.
Very strange. :)