Perhaps there is a niche for this type of camcorder. Several years ago our company used to document the daily progress on construction projects using a camcorder. The media was VHS and no post editing was done – just record the event and put the tape in the file. Problem with VHS was if someone wanted to go back and review a tape to find a specific point in time, it was a tedious process. We currently use digital still cameras for this type of documentation but the DVD camcorder could provide a viable way to supplement the still pictures.
JL

Vitalforces,

The only use for the USB 2.0 connection is to transfer files either using the bundled Pixela software or directly. If the Sony driver is not installed the Pixela software cannot access the camera, but the camera is seen by Windows as a DVD-R drive. Once the Sony driver is installed, there is no more DVD-R drive in My Computer and ONLY the Pixela software can access the camera. Go figure that one.

I recorded my first DVDs in the VR format as opposed to the Video format. It was a combination of this format and the inability of a computer I was using at the time that I could not read the mini-DVDs. All I kept getting is messages about a corrupted disk or an incompatible format. Later after I got a new laptop and after I installed Easy CD & DVD Creator 6 I was able to read these mini-DVDs from the camera directly (using USB 2.0) or with the laptops DVD burner regardless of the format in which they were recorded.

As it stands now it is much more convenient to just pop one of these mini-DVDs in the laptop's drive instead of having to hook up the camera, get the power supply for it and so on.

Once I can access the mini-DVDs I could convert the VOB or VRO files on it to whatever format my conversion software allows.

The camera does not stream video/audio thru the USB port. Or at least I am not aware of that.

fuzzy john -- very kind of you to post all this info, most of which I did not know!
re Pixela -- I have not even been able to get the capture to work -- can't recognize camera... course as you say, if we have these discs, shouldn't we get the benefit of just putting them in our PCs? the Pixela guys know they have a loser -- they seem desperate to get a patch that will let us use their s/ware to import the vro/vob files directly from the discs, but we will see...
I have renamed the files to mpgs but of course the ac-3 issue gets in the way of any editing... supposedly Cyberlink Power Director 2.55 has an ac-3 plugin BUT i bought it and it didn't work -- I have an inquiry into tech sup but they are all in taiwan and unresponsive...
as for MSpro, yeah I used to use it too -- was up to 6.5 but went over to VV and liked it much better so I hate to go back for this issue, but...
i'm sure VV will <eventually> have a plugin for vob/vr files -- sony owns the s/w so hopefully that relationship would manifest itself in a solution but I have seen these things drag on for way too long huh?
wow, so you demuxed 200 files to get the wav files? what a horrendus p-i-t-a -- sorry u had to endure such suffering. I have looked at all those utilities too -- they're mostly free which is nice but the time to do it makes me puke...
Here's an alternative for you -- switch to Premiere and get the Heuristic plugin for the vro files and an ac-3 plugin for the audio -- I am sending a vro file from my DVD200 to Heuristic to verify it will work (they are excited they may have the only NLE plugin that supports these new Sonys...) -- total cost for the s/ware and 2 plugins about 1grand ;-D
Appreicate all your info --lets hang in there for a fix (what else can we do?)
Rich

Rich...

Hmmm... I had no problem getting Pixela to recognize the camera and let me capture the clips from it. And that was on an older computer that only had USB 1.1 ports. My main problem was the fact that I had shot my son's wedding in wide screen format (16:9) and Pixela refused to respect that. Later I also noticed the severe lack of features in Pixela, which is what led me down the path I am on now.

So far I am having good luck with MSPro 7 but it would be so much nicer to use the VV interface. I guess I will stick with it and maybe in the future give VV another try. For now though I have to see what I can do to get my $500 that I sunk into VV back.

John, I haven't read the license all the way through or even looked at it for a long time but I don't think there is any restrictions on selling it. So if you don't want it I'm sure your could sell it on E-Bay on something. I'd send a note to customer service first and explain your problem.

I think you're going to hit the same wall with Premiere Pro as with Vegas.I think it too for all the right reasons will only output to ac3.

I am not going to Premiere Pro. I already rolled up my sleeves and started working with Ulead MediaStudio Pro 7. I does import the AC-3 sound from the camera clips without any problems. I just have to get used to the interface and I will probably have to do a lot more work to create titles and such.

I already contacted Customer Service by phone and they flatly refused to hear this. I tried to go around via tech support and unfortunately it has been 6 days since their first and only reply.

If anybody reading this message knows this info, I would appreciate the name and mailing address of the head of Sony Pictures Digital division so that I could send my request in writing. Any idea SonyEPM?

If all else fails I will have no other choice than to finfd a buyer for the software. The license does allow this. The license only limits Sony's liability to the greater of $5 or the purchase amount. Any idea how can I get going that path?

John,
sorry I wasn't suggesting taht you were, I think someone else was proposing it as a solution. Did you consider something as simple as simply playing the DVD ina DVD player and digitising from it's output?

I'm might interested in this, my bos wants to buy a few of these cameras to hire out BUT this ac3 audio thing is killing it. If a way arounf it that isn't too horrid can be found would be great fro both of us. I've done the same trcik myself for someone who wanted a quick copy of a DVD on VHS so she could watch it. Now that I can go component into the A/D converter I don't think the quality hot is going to be too bad.

I had a quick play around with ULead MP 6 (came with the A/V Link), I've used more basic tools to get jobs done, sure its pretty clunky compared with VV but it seems solid enough for what it is, I could use it without reading the manual, that says something for it. Didn't try going to DVD though.

BTW, I guess you know about BeSweet right, that will get you from ac3 to wav which is what you need. Now I know running through hundreds of clips with it is going to be a right pain but from memory its got a batch processing mode, think it reads what to do from a file. Now it shouldn't be too hard to write a program in VB to say just tell it to translate all the files in one directory. Might need to let it run overnight but that shouldn't be a show stopper right.

From memory when I used it the clips held sync no problem, sound was OK, hard to know just how good the original stuff was anyway. BeSweet does some pretty serious processing to get it back in reasonable shape.

Don't know if this is a good ongoing workaround even if it does work but might get you through your current project. I suspect we'll hear something a bit more definative from Sony and others on this soon. If they don't address this issue this camera is going nowhere. Guess that's little consolation for you.

Fuzzy John -- maybe I need to go back to MSP... recall I had tried the demo but it didn't take the DVD200 clips but I see in one of your posts that the demo has things disabled? So you mean you can take your VOB files straight in? how bout VRO files? even just VOB would be good . And you have to get the big ole MSP-DVD combo why?
thanks -- appreciate the info -- maybe I'll go back to MSP, though the $dough -- ouch!
Rich

Rich...

Hope this is not getting more confusing than it already is. The software that has MPEG support disabled in the demo is Vegas. The 30 day trial of MSPro 7 seems to have just about all features fully enabled. The only thing that was disabled in MSPro trial was the Ripple Editing.

I have not tried to use renamed VOB or VRO files with MSPro but I suspect that it would work. If it does and you can import these renamed files into MSPro then you will have one long clip, but you can easily cut it at the points where you want to edit.

However, MSPro 7 has the DVD-VR plugin which will capture MPG files directly from these mini-DVDs. All you have to do is to point the plugin to the correct folder where the VOB or the VRO file(s) are. Each scene ends up as a separate MPG clip. They still have the AC-3 sound but MSPro 7 seems to have no trouble importing the sound. There seems to be no recompression during this process as I noticed that the total size of the MPG clips is just about the same as the size of the VOB or VRO file(s).

True that the MSPro interface is clunkier than that of VV but in the end what good is a nice streamlined interface in a program that does not do what you want it to do. Lack of AC-3 sound import in VV aside, VV also seems to have difficulty "splicing" MPEG-2 clips. When played back it looked like there were some garbage frames at the "splice" point. I check the rendered video frame by frame and I could not find any problems, but at normal speed playback it looked jumpy. MSPro does not have this problem. This may be a good fix for the next version of VV.

Another thing I came across in VV is the handling of the wide screen format. I am not sure exactly of what I did, but it seemed like if I had the wide screen option turned on it actually worked in reverse, squeezing the frame even more than 4:3, making the frame look square. I had to change one of the options from 16:9 to 4:3 to make it look right (widescreen). As I said, this could be something that I did wrong. Also, if I remember right, the preview window does not display widescreen.

I know what you mean about the dough... even though it turned out that I got MSPro about $140 cheaper than VV. But for now I have to account for both packages and that is a BIG OUCH !!!!!!!!

Last thing... and probably very important. MSPro also uses the MainConcept MPEG plugin and there seems to be some kind of interference between MSPro and VV if you have both installed on the same machine. I remember that when I installed the VV Demo after installing the MSPro 7 trial, the MSPro Editor started crashing when I closed the program. Probably best is to play with these programs only one at a time and if possible you should use a hard drive image to switch back and forth. I had hoped that the jumpy cuts in VV were caused by the 2 MainConcept plugins so I installed VV on a freshly formatted HD. Same results.

John -- you are a treasure trove of help to me -- soory for all my confusion re these various apps -- I have been looking at way too many lately I guess...
MSP does sound like the way to go allright -- it might not have worked for me because I didn't "capture" the files which I read somewhere is the tricky way you have to do it, is that right?
Like you say, even if VV gets the ac-3 issue handled there is still the clunky handling of mpeg2 editing -- not good. This will all be fixed for sure but with the transition of ownership etc , I have a feeling I could grow much older waiting for it.
I will give MSP another go of it tonight. btw, the ULead tech folks confess that the Video Studio and Movie Factory SE versions bundled with the Pioneer DVD burners DO accept ac-3 files, which is a quirk since the full-fledged versions DO NOT and there is no patch/update to give them ac-3 import support -- weird but true...;-)
thanks again John,
Rich

John:
My .02: When somebody sells you a "square" tire instead of a "round" tire take it back, not the car it is supposed to fit on. Just wondered why you haven't considered this action instead of returning the NLE's.

JJK

JJKizak,

I am not sure I uderstand what you mean. What action should I have considered?

I purchased the NLE (Vegas+DVD) based on misleading information on the web site, which as of today has been corrected, and also based on using the Demo version for about 10 days, with the MPEG plugin locked out. I became aware of the problem as soon as I opened the purchased software, installed it and activate it so that I could use the MPEG plugin. At that time I contacted Sony regarding the return. Sony Customer Service refused to hear about it while the vendor I purchased the software from does not accept returns of opened software. The vendor has no fault in this. They only try to protect their skin against people who buy the software, copy it and then return it. Since the software I purchased does not perform as I was led to believe, isn't the logical thing to do to return it to the manufacturer? Should I have tried to turn the "square" tire into a round one?

Rich,

I did not find the "capture" tricky. It is basically straighforward. You select the DVD-VR plugin to use, point the Capture program to the VIDEO_TS or the DVD_RTAV folder, tell it where you want the clips saved and then select which clips you want to import from the VOB or VRO file. The capture is relatively fast on my 2.8 GHz P4 laptop with a 5400 RPM drive (about 4-5 minutes for a full mini-DVD).

Regardless oh what Video Studio does, MSPro DOES import the AC-3 files. Last night I was finally able to start working on my son's wedding video. I even burned a test DVD+RW (I did not have DVD-RW on hand) which my home player, an older Sony (sic) model, unfortunatelly cannot play. That DVD plays OK on the laptop. I just have to find another player that can handle DVD+RW.

And finally... should you decide to give MSPro a try, just be aware of possible interference between the MainConcept plugins that you will have installed.

John

I've been buying software for better than twenty years and in all that time I NEVER got stuck holding the bag for either defective software or software that claims it does whatever and doesn't.

I guess my negotiating skills from by auditing days helps. The point is don't get angry, you need to be diplomatic. While that may be hard for some here to believe, I CAN be very diplomatic, especially when we're talking a potential loss of money. :-)

I've taken back opened software to BestBuy CompUSA, MicroCenter, other places and returned opened software bought by mail order. Only once did I have to involve my credit card company.

Be firm, be accurate, be able to PROVE that either the box says such and such or after installing, some readme file or the manual claims the software can do something or simply that the application won't do what it claims back it goes.

In many cases the retailer simply checks to be sure what's suppose to be in the box is all there then they just put fresh shrink wrap on it and back on the shelf it goes. I know.... once I bought what seemed like new software. I installed it, ran fine. But... when thumbing through the manual as I always do, out pops one of those sticky notes with scribling on it, someone obviously had this package before I did.

thanks again John -- appreicate the reminder to get all the VV and MConcept off first.
btw, I think JJ's point was that the NLE is the car and the camcorder is the tire -- but with all the advantages the Sony miniDVD format has, I would see it the other way around, agree?
Rich

Go to www.dvdrhelp.com/tools?section=29#29. There is a Virtualdub filter called AC3 ACM Decompressor. It will convert your AC3 files to WAV. You will need to install Virtualdub first.

John:
Usually when I have a problem with compatability such as you are having, and with software and electronic "dingusses" that are available today I make some very sober judgements when things don't work---get rid of them and find something else that works. Kind of like General Patton. There are enough problems with video editing to keep straight in your mind not to clutter it up with something new on the market that has compatability problems. It will probably be corrected in the future but I would listen to what DSE says as I do. Yes the tire was the camera and the car was the NLE. Its the full of the moon so I'm not being very diplomatic. I agree with you on the AC-3 thing with Sony but not on "camera concepts" I also agree that you have been conceptionally manipulated by marketing hype.

JJK

Thanks for the clarification, but as it stands, I bought the "tire" way before the "car". My guess is that it would have been much harder to return unless I tried to sell it. And that would not solve my immediate problem of not being able to edit the almost 2 hours of footage I had already shot at my son's wedding.

Now that Sony Pictures Digital has modified the specifications page for the Vegas+DVD package to indicate that those specs are specific to DVD Architect and not general to the package, I will take a day or two break from thinking about this and then I will contact them in writing asking them to buy the software back from me based on misleading advertising. That sounds better than asking for a refund.

John -- well I've just gone from no solutions to two! thanks to your help, I got MSP running just fine (had to reload XP to get rid of some weird conflicts -- probably from running through about a hundred trial apps/utilities lately...) and then I got some tech support from Cyberlink to help me get Power Director Pro working -- it's a mid-level app similar to Ulead Video Studio -- storyboard format but with lots of output options -- nice. Certainly all my kids would need to do editing.
So thanks again -- will hope to get back to VV someday when they wake up "duh, say since we're Sony now -- I guess we should have our software handle our digicams!" too much to hope for?
thanks again John -- good luck getting your dough back,
Rich

FuzzyJohn, BillyBoy makes very good points. You purchased software that does not do what you believed it would do based on the manufacturer's (Sony) statements. Sony has pretty much proven they were wrong by changing their description.

You do have a few options. I haven't read every post in this thread, but I didn't see information on where you purchased the software. If you purchased it from a retailer, take it back. If you purchased it directly from Sony, I assume you used a credit card. If so, notify your credit card company that the charges are in dispute, and explain why. Tell Sony that you are disputing the charges, that the merchandise you received is not what they advertised, and you wish to return it on that basis. If it was me, and sometimes I get pretty beligerent when I feel I've been mistreated, I'd ship the software back to Sony (make sure you get proof of delivery, preferably with a signature), then file the dispute with my credit card stating I have returned the merchandise, with an explanation of why. You're credit card company will almost certainly give you your money back, and then they can deal with Sony.

Another direction to go is to file a complaint with the Attorneys General in your state and in the state where Sony's US headquarters are located. I believe most states have laws dealing with false or misleading advertising, which this appears to be. Sony may not have intended their statements to be misleading, but that doesn't change the fact that they were.

That all said, I love Vegas! I just don't think it's fair for a big company to take advantage of a little consumer when the company is in the wrong. This seems to be one of those times.

Gary