The 'burning' of DVD's has always been a improvised method.

The pros use a glass master to press into the discs which creates pits. These pits are read by the laser.

Burning alters the dye layer to create it's own pits.

A pressed pit will always beat a dye-embedded pit. But it's surprising that they're nearly as compatible based on their makeshift origins.

DGates! Thank you . . you've filled another void in my chasm of understanding this stuff .. "makeshift" . . like it .. like it .. .

Grazie

Although the process (burning a hole in a dye layer versus stamping a pit) is different this isn't what makes for the compatability issue.
The critical difference is I think in the reflective layer, I've run into this issue with burnt audio CDs as well, older / cheap / portable players don't have enough juice in the laser to read a reliable signal back from the reflective layer.
I'd also imagine the mastering process is much better controlled' less jitter etc which makes the DVD easier to track.
Of course many of the compatibility issues are also caused by the data on the disk but I think a good replication house will check all of this before they go to the master.
One word of caution, I'm hearing of some pretty dodgy replication facilities, price is really hitting rock bottom. You should really look for a plant with ISO 9000 certification, doesn't mean that much but at least it means they do take their business seriously enough to have gotten certification. I've heard of finished product coming back with wrong AR on the menus but more of a worry is clients material being 'leaked' out the back door, maybe that explains where a lot of the high quality piracy is coming from.
Bob.

Good advice Bob - G

There's some very interesting info there, although I am not sure that the answer to my question lies there. Here's a scenario.....

About a year ago, I put together a DVD with footage from a vacation away with my wife. Some time later, we were at a friends house for dinner and I went to play the DVD on his Sherwood DVD player, but the player simply refused to play it. My friend said, "oh, if that's a burnt disc, don't bother, this player won't play em".....I'm thinkin, "how the hell does the player know that it's not a commercial disc?"

So, my concern is, when I get my new project duplicated, is there going to be issues on players such as my friends Sherwood?

Bottom line is, these days it's more of a DVD player issue than a disc issue. The question is, "How old is your friend's Sherwood DVD player?" All new players play quality made discs. Too, don't get caught up in the idea that the most expensive discs are the best ones. It simply isn't true.

Jay

There is a HUGE difference in quality between different makes of DVD-Rs. I find Maxell to be the best, but Ritek is awfully good as well and a lot cheaper. Buy printable face ones online. They're a lot cheaper. As far as player compatibility goes, there are older DVD players that won't play back burned DVDs. As time goes by there are fewer and fewer though. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Almost every DVD player does play burned DVDs these days. It has to do with the sensetivity of the light sensor and the laser.

Ralph LaBarge is the oracle for things like this. You might want to read this article:

DVD Media

John,

The web site you provided is an interesting start; however, the information appears to be outdated by a couple of years--DVD+R burners and media have been available for quite some time by now.

Unfortunately, even though many recent dvd players are fully compatible with both -R and +R formats there still appear to be format-specific compatibility problems with 10 - 15 % of players.

It is a really irritating problem for the people who receive my dvds--these are documentaries primarily of their children's sports activities (carefully produced but no compensation is ever accepted). Probably less than 1 % of the general public has any notion at all about dvd compatibility issues--if they're in the unlucky group they just know that the free disk I gave them doesn't work (i.e., I must have screwed something up/given them a bad disk/"you get what you pay for--i.e., it was free so it's junk/whatever).

I've started including a detailed information sheet about dvd compatibility issues with my giveaways; however, I don't think very many folks really get it. And even if they do get it, very few are willing to plunk down money on a "comaptible" dvd player just to view my disks. I used to make a few mpeg1 VCDs for the unlucky folks but this became way too much work for gratis projects.

Best regards,

Lee

The original post, which is what I was trying to answer, was about the difference between commercial DVDs, which are pressed, and those created via burning. The big difference, obviously, is reflectivity, and the LaBarge article mentions that.

As far as a newer compatiblity test, I have been looking for one for a long time in order to find definitive information, based on laboratory testing, that would indicate what media provides the broadest compatiblity. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any such data. The videohelp.com site provides user-reported data, but it is only useful in a very general way, and is primarily useful to find which brands to avoid. Because of the huge number of variables, the self-reported statistics really are not particularly useful in selected the media which perform the best.

If you know of a better, newer media test that was done scientifically and which could be used to determine which media would provide the best compatibility, I'd sure like to know.

No, sorry, I don't have access to more recent media and/or player test results that meet the requirements of breadth and scientific rigor. I wish I did.

Still, for the end user of home-burned dvds player compatibility is the biggest issue IMO and I would also posit that user-compiled anecdotal lists of player compatibility are actually pretty good--much better than the limited (or zero) information provided by some player manufacturers.

Best regards,

Lee

I just know that with Maxell disks, I have yet to have a DVD player compatability problem, whereas with other media I had problems constantly. I've started using Riteks because they are so much cheaper and so far they seem very good as well, though I haven't had that much time with them yet.

As far as compatibility....

If you are burning DVD+R format, make sure you look into bit changing. You can tell the burner to mark your DVD+R as a DVD-ROM, which is the bookstyle that Hollywood studios sell their DVDs as. I re-burned a DVD that would not play on a finicky Toshiba player, and it played the new "DVD-ROM" without problem. I think I used DVDPro to change the setting on my computer burner.

Be warned that Nero will over ride this, so use Architect or something else to actually do the burning.

>>..."oh, if that's a burnt disc, don't bother, this player won't play em"...

I had this exact same scenario with some work I am doing for my sister. She said her Sony Playstation 2 won't play burned disks.

I sent down to Florida a Ritek DVD, I think G04, burned at 2X; just a test DVD (with a sticker; just for testing purposes) and it not only played just fine in her set top DVD player but the Playstation 2 as well.

From what I hear the Playstation 2 is not that good with burned disks, in general, so if you can play on that, you stand a pretty chance of good compatibility on other players...or so I hear. (Note: Their wedding DVDs would not play in the PS2; mine do (Using Encore 1.5 now, but DVD-A 1.0 also played.)

The only player my disks would not play on no how, no way was on someone's really cheap Apex DVD player that was only $30 *some time ago*, so you can imagine how cheap it was. It wouldn't even play Maxell disks.

I have had very good results with Fuji +R, Maxell +R, Philips +R, as well as Ritek +R (which I now use exclusively). These even played on some pretty "old" DVD players (+R not +RW). Also, I have found Philips DVD players to be very compatible with just about everything and pretty inexpensive too. You can get a really good one for $69 right now at Wal Mart.

NOTE: Also, I do not encode above 6 MPS or so... This has proved to be very helpful. I have had good players choke on 8+ MPS firstplays; reencoded to 6 and all played fine.

Hope this helps...

Are you talking about duplication or replication?
Duplication means you're having it bunt, replication means a glass master and pressing.

Thanks everyone for some very informative reading, and Farss, for clearing up the Duplication and Replication difference for me.

Kindest Regards,

Teejay

I've had very good results with Ritek over the last 3 years. I had diabolical results with anything coming out of the Princo factory. Stay clear! If I had to bet my life on a single disk being compatible I would choose Maxell or Pioneer. Seen various reports on the consistent quality of both. Can't beat Ritek though to keep costs down if you're burning in bulk.

As for players, the only one I know about that just wouldn't play my Ritek DVD-R in the last year was a very expensive B&O TV with integrated DVD player. The customer saw the funny side of it and accepted a VCD in the end while he kept the DVD for use on his computer.

Also I understand you can't encrypt a writeable disk like you can a pressed one. I was starting to get to the bottom of this but the DVD FAQ's ( http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html ) sent me to sleep. However for me this throws up the question... What can I actually do to prevent pirating of the material on my writeable DVD's other than a watermark?

"Pressed" DVD's are created when a glass master is pressed into the reflective layer. When the laser reads a DVD, it looks for the reflection (a "one") or no reflection (a zero). The glass master literally distorts the mirror layer a couple of degrees, so that the reflected laser misses the detector, and is a zero. (Dual layer discs use a semitransparent reflective layer below a silver reflective layer, but pressing either layer does the same thing with the reflection of the laser).

"Burned" DVD's don't burn a "hole" through the data layer. The laser causes the organic layer to change color slightly darker. Behind the organic data layer is a reflective layer. In theory a clear spot in the data layer allows the laser to reflect back to the detector, making a "one", and the bits darkened by the write laser don't reflect back to the detector, making a "zero". The problem is that these "1" and "0" transitions are kind of fuzzy. They aren't sharp, high contrast changes in reflectivity that pressing the pits in the reflective layer creates during playback.

This is the difference in a semi-technical nutshell. In practice the data is encoded in a format slightly more compact and robust than simply ones and zeros called NRZ (Not Return to Zero)

There never will be a definitive list of compatability, as the list of DVD players changes weekly and the composition of the data layer gets tinkered with by the manufacturers almost continuously. A working combination today may not work next month on the same player.

Bottom line - if the player is more than two years old, it likely won't play any DVD-R or DVD+R. The firmware in the player is simply not looking for the less than perfect transitions of data that comes from reading a burned disc.

The question: "What can I actually do to prevent pirating of the material on my writeable DVD's other than a watermark?"

Comes up quite frequently. The bottom line is that there is nothing you can do. Even encrypted DVD's can be ripped and the material easily copied by anyone that really wants to copy it. Macrovision can also be easily defeated.

How you deal with this is going to depend on your target audience. Some have found that by keeping costs low, that people are less likely to copy (why copy when it's just as cheap to purchase another), others have found that vaule added things - nice printing on the DVD, classy looking case, etc., have helped. Another approach is to include a credit roll or paper insert explaining why violating copyright hurts not only you, but ultimately the consumer (if they like your product, but you can't afford to do it anymore, then it becomes unavailable). Getting your money up front may be an option as well.

--Scott

Regardless of whether it can be defeated or not, is it actually POSSIBLE to do anything like Macrovision, CSS, CPRM etc on a DVD-R?

I'm going by the theory that something is better than nothing and I'd rather someone had to work a bit to copy my DVD (and know they're doing something naughty) than just chuck it in the drive, fire up Nero and click "copy".

I would like to know this, too. (I think this is what the OP was really getting at)...

That DVD project I'm working on will end up in stores nationally. I have a feeling that prepping a DVD for mass production isn't as easy and upfront as just making it in DVDA, burning it to a DVD-R, and sending it to a duplication facility. Then again, I can't imagine what would be missing, so maybe it's just that simple?

How about Macrovision, is that just a "switch" that is signalled from the video, and the player turns the protection "on?"

What about copy protection / encryption?

Pumice, in regards to your question on Microvision, the following was posted by Spot on 11/24/04:

"There is no sure-fire way of preventing duplicates, and no way at all to prevent a one-off from being duplicated. Watermarking and trust are your two options, and that's about it. CSS and Macrovision are only available if you use a replication company licensed by those groups. Not to mention the cost of the copyprotection. And even with those protections, any 14 year old with a little bit of time and some free software can crack the encryption. Sad, but true."

See full thread here.

Too, it is my understanding the copyprotection is very expensive.

Jay