What level for audio peaks in post?

musman wrote on 7/18/2004, 11:27 PM
I just ordered the new Sound Forge book, but it won't be here for a while and I was wondering about this. Someone here told me a while ago that dialog should peak at around -3 db in post and that this is where all audio work should ultimately end up.
This weekend, however, I made a short film with a friend who does a lot of commerial work and he said his company peaks their audio at -20 db. They used to shoot for -10 db, but they've found -20 db to work better.
The audio he worked on did sound pretty good when played on an average TV and also a decent surround system.
So now I'm a bit confused. Where exactly should dialog peak in post?
Thanks for any help!

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 7/18/2004, 11:51 PM
http://my.digitalmedianet.com/cgi-bin/displayarticle.cgi?articleid=15724
Grazie wrote on 7/19/2004, 12:17 AM
Hullo Spot . .getting a register page when I surf to the link .. It also page not found when I do my normal DMN enter procedure .. I'm MORE than just interested in this item . .

Any ideas about the weblinkages?

Grazie
farss wrote on 7/19/2004, 1:14 AM
I don't believe there's any hard and fast rule to this. The critical thing is to not have the peaks going over 0dBFS. I've used Wavehammer to get the peaks sitting at 0dB and the troughs at about -6dB, sure leaped out at you!
All the techincal discussion though, from what I can see is one thing, what matter more is where your dialogue sits in the rest of the mix and the only way to evaluate that is by listening to it, not just on studio monitors but also through what your intended audience will be listening to it through. Personally like to err on the side of having the overall level too loud. People tend not to complain, they just turn it down, but due to some foible of the human mind if i'st too soft for them they don't turn it up.
Grazie wrote on 7/19/2004, 1:24 AM
Bob, how did you get to the page? - I'm having troubles with it?

TIA

Grazie
rs170a wrote on 7/19/2004, 2:15 AM
Grazie, I knew it was out there "somewhere" else.
http://www.digitalprosound.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=15724
Happy reading :-)

Mike
Grazie wrote on 7/19/2004, 2:22 AM
RS - thank you . . Interesting indeed. . well that makes a load of sense . . the history AND the setting of levels and the -20db thing . . AND the dif between ANA and Dig . . good!

Grazie
farss wrote on 7/19/2004, 3:04 AM
Actually Grazie I couldn't get to that page either so I was just "shootin the breeze" if you know what I mean. But I'm pretty certain I've read it before.
I was educated in things audio by the old school guys back in the days of vacuum tubes. I think some of them would be pretty stunned by the digital revolution if they were still alive. I had the pleasure of meeting a great Australian, the inventor of the Pedal Radio. Changed life in the outback. When you needed to communicate you got on your bike and pedalled to generate enough power to run a small two way radio, biggest thing was being able to call in the Flying Doctor in the event of an emergency.

Sorry to wonder OT!
Grazie wrote on 7/19/2004, 7:00 AM
Bob . ."Sorry to wonder OT!" . .yeah you caught it off me . .comes of knocking around with the wrong people .. <wink>

Grazie
craftech wrote on 7/19/2004, 8:38 AM
-12db as a general rule has worked well for me.

John
Spot|DSE wrote on 7/19/2004, 8:51 AM
Running peaks at -12 dB FS on final output?
craftech wrote on 7/20/2004, 5:23 AM
Yes SPOT,

Any reason why that's bad?

John
Spot|DSE wrote on 7/20/2004, 5:31 AM
Not "bad" per se, but you are significantly shortchanging yourself and your listeners. If you sent this off for broadcast, they'd have to bump your levels by at least 9dB. The replicator, if they have an ethical workflow, should be doing the same, or at least notifying you of the low output.
-12dB is a great average, but not a peak level. Peaks should be hitting in the -2dB to -.3dB range. That's why WaveHammer, Ultramaximizer, Ozone, and other maximizing tools are out there, to help you hit that level without creeping over due to excessive dynamics.
farss wrote on 7/20/2004, 6:51 AM
I'm doing a lot of format transfer work for a very august national broadcaster and they invariably have their peaks around -12. I'm not game enough to complain (although I've given them stick over CDs with track breaks in the middle of a word!), I'm suspecting their engineers haven't yet made the adjustment to peak reading meters or something.
One comment I'd add to SPOTS, although its sure way better to have your levels a bit on the low side that than clipping you are throwing away resolution, every 6 dB I think equals one bit. So if your levels are peaking at -12 when they could safely be at 0 you've effectively making a 14 bit recording. Still nothing to worry about that much but I've had people recording at -20 and then when you wind it up to a reasonable level and apply some compression it does start to pickup some audible digital harshness.
craftech wrote on 7/20/2004, 7:09 AM
It's just a general rule I use, but I often exceed it. I also use -12db as a general rule when setting up a mixer output especially when there isn't anyone to ride levels.

John