Getting back to the original question, "What's Happened to Vegas", it should be rephrased, "What's Happened to the Video Industry" and the answer is "lack of standards". One tool cannot rule them all. We as video editors need to be prepared with a kit of tools to take those formats that are not "edit friendly" and transcode them into edit friendly formats and then use our favorite NLE that supports those formats. You just can't expect Vegas to open every file you through at it anymore. Those days are over. There are just too many formats with more popping up every day with each new $99 HD camera.

I don't think there's a lack of standards. There are multiple ones, like there was in SD. I don't think Vegas is supposed to support them all, but if it says that it supports a format, then given proper hardware power, it should play them in real time. The AVCHD bashers keep on insisting that the format is too heavy on CPUs, that is not meant for editing, blah, blah, blah, but if I can play and edit this format in real time in an NLE without pre-conversion that tells me that the problem is not the format, it's just that Vegas' AVCHD engine is not properly built and optimized to take advantage of the hardware power. That it's way more CPU intensive than HDV or any other MPEG2 based format I agree, but we have currently enough power to handle it well if the software is well written.

For anyone who's familiar with software development, it reminds me of Java's "write once, run anywhere" mantra. You write your java code to spec, then realize it runs a little differently under IBM's WebSphere vs. JBoss vs. WebLogic - because they each interpret the java spec a little differently.

Anybody who's making stability or performance comparisons of Vegas to FCP or Avid or Edius should remember that each of these NLEs either force you to transcode to their codec or recommend that you transcode to their codec. I realize this is a blanket statement and I have not verified this 100%, but it IS the case with the examples I've seen. One poster was extolling the playback virtues of Avid MC in an earlier thread but admitted he hadn't tried it with AVCHD. And that's what many folks are having issues with these days it seems.

Meaning that, just because you can drag a clip using the codec-flavor-of-the-month onto the Vegas timeline doesn't mean that you should. In some cases you're better off to transcode to Cineform or MXF or some other intermediate and edit with that. Just like the other NLEs do.

DAvid, if Cineform ever releases a version that has 10bit support within Vegas, I would gladly pay for the 4K version and transcode all my video to cineform intermediate for just about everything.

P.S. Has anyone tried DNXHD in Vegas? It's free. So is Metafuze.

I just mentioned ffdshow because it also installs libavcodec. Libavcodec is the real engine. Libavcodec is a single repository of all the opensource codecs.

Stories of "can't get it off my machine", or hassles getting it working, or it doesn't work, or whatever are because you don't know how to configure it to do what you want yet.

libavcodec is configured through the VFW interface. You can use one codec only if you so choose, and are nervous.

This stuff is not newby-friendly and needs some learning, which I thought existed in this forum, but apparently that's not the case.

Shooting arrows at new information and playing king are counterproductive to growth.

There are LOTS of other free tools out there, some are EXTREMELY helpful.

VRodder:
> to avoid the black dropouts in the rendered video

Does this happen in Vegas 9c 64bit?
I reverted to 9b for the 64 bit version of Vegas, just because of this. I also posted once or twice here in this group, describing this issue. With zero response though.. so I thought it was "only me".
Ingvar

"P.S. Has anyone tried DNXHD in Vegas? It's free. So is Metafuze. "

It's all I use. Metafuze won't really help you much unless you are trying to take MXFs to Avid. That's what it's built to do.

But because of Vegas' method of handling quicktime based files,DNxHD is VERY slow. Quality is outstanding though.

Trying to find a high quality .avi or intraframe .mxf codec is not so easy.

bud,
None of what you have said requires any further comment. It speaks for itself.
Over the last six days, you have exhibited an unusual learning style.
You may want to continue your theories over at Doom9, for a number of reasons.

Thanks Perrone. What do you use to transcode video into dnxhd?

Usually MPEG Streamclip. But if I am in the NLE and rendering, then I just do it from there.

The Avid dnxHD codec, once installed, is available in Vegas through the MOV rendering options.

> VRodder:
> to avoid the black dropouts in the rendered video

> Does this happen in Vegas 9c 64bit?
> reverted to 9b for the 64 bit version of Vegas, just because of this. I also
> posted once or twice here in this group, describing this issue. With zero response though.. so I thought it was "only me".
> Ingvar

For me it only does this in the 64-bit version. If you google around a bit, I think you'll find lots of people with this issue. In fact there's a number of YouTube videos that demonstrate the problem as well.

And even after I disable resampling, the preview window will often go black for a few frames here and there, just when playing, or even just using the arrow keys to step through frame by frame. So I've been trying to use the 32-bit version for now.

For me, I'm still trying to use Vegas for the work I've already done on the project, but I've switched to another NLE to finish the job. I just don't have the patience to work through all of the issues in the product right now; even though I more comfortable using Vegas than any other NLE.

I guess I should look at it as an opportunity to broaden my horizons...

Anybody who's making stability or performance comparisons of Vegas to FCP or Avid or Edius should remember that each of these NLEs either force you to transcode to their codec or recommend that you transcode to their codec

FCP and Avid do, but as I said in this thread, Edius Neo 2 Booster accepts AVCHD natively and it plays real time through transitions and events with filters applied (although probably not lots of filters, I just tried with color correction on).

The Avid dnxHD codec, once installed, is available in Vegas through the MOV rendering options.

I installed that codec the other day, and while it shows as a QT codec, the properties dialog is all messed up, so I assume it's still not designed for Windows 7. Did anybody try it in W7?

Don't make that assumption. It's not Windows 7 that is the issue. The codec works just fine. I've used it in XP, XP64, Vista, and Win7 with no issue. I wish they would fix that silly issue though.

You just need to grab the drop-down list in the very bottom of the truncated window.
It's not a Win7 issue. Running Vista 32 and XP SP3 here.

BudWzr, ffdshow and libavcodec are not new news to many of vegas users. If you have an ideal of using theses apps in the work flow------ then set up an example using them to solve a problem, posted with snapshots of the settings and the final results. I think many will say "Thank you!" and reconsider your postings-- maybe. ;-) I know there a few who refuse to use Qtime and uses the "alternate Qtime", so there many that are willing to look at "other" solutions, but examples are the key because time is something most don't have to waste on a "maybe".

You're very right, Bud. There are some new tools. And they are useful. And they're not self-evident. And they cost a lot of time (=money) to get to work properly and/or efficiently.

A good portion of those working in this community don't have the time to take machines offline to develop kludged workflows that won't function in a team environment.

It's always good to learn. It's always good to be productive.
Sometimes the learning process can dramatically hinder the production process. That's why at the top end, there are standards, most of which Vegas supports.
At the bottom end, as manufacturers of devices do whatever they can to gain an edge, to avoid royalties, or to hedge on encoder costs, there will always be slow growth. If that growth comes at the expense of the viability and speed of Vegas (which is its primary advantage over other apps), then most productive folks would just as soon see Vegas not support those low end needs. Vegas Movie Studio would be more suitable.

Well said, Douglas.
But even VMS is a few steps out of the entropic "swamp" compared to the rest of inexpensive consumer NLE programs.
There are lots of good little third-party apps to do those "consumerish" tasks without plunking down $100 for an NLE and then trying to figure out how to use it or retrofit it.

Happy New Year!

"This stuff is not newby-friendly and needs some learning, which I thought existed in this forum, but apparently that's not the case."

If you stopped posturing for long enough to learn something yourself then one of us might have told you that the most useful filters (plugins) from the open source community are freely available as Vegas plugins. I use the best of the noise reduction and de-interlacing tools all the time.

If you want to use high end 3rd party encoders then Satish's frameserver is also freely available. Of course the high end 3rd party encoders are not free but for some of us the visual quality of our work is paramount.

Most of us are here to learn about our craft and one tool in particular. Learning all the crafts required to create a watchable 'movie' is a huge challenge, expecting people to make detours to save a few dollars is silly. People's time is valuable to them. I've used the free deshaker tools in avisynth. Now I have a paying ob that has a couple of clips on the timeline that could use some treatement. I'll buy a functional commercial plugin that simply works without me having to think about it. A couple of clicks and the jobs done, without leaving my NLE of choice. Yes I could get it done without paying a dime but that takes more time and is another distraction I have to wrangle and I already have paying jobs queued up. I just add the cost of the tool(s) to deal with the client's dodgy footage onto the bill.

To look at this another way. One of the greatest revolutions that happened in arts was the development of the lead tube. Painters could then buy premixed standard oil paints. This freed them from needing understudies to do the hard slog of mixing paints for them. It enabled anyone who wanted to become a painter to do so at a fraction of the cost, no longer did you have to be wealthy or need a patron to create a masterpiece.

There's been a few quiet revolutions in this industry as well. Perhaps the most noteable being the "DV Revolution". That started with the VX1000 camera, designed, built and sold by Sony. Today Sony continues to design build and sell revolutionary tools for film makers. Their Z1 HDV camera enabled film makers to have a half decent shot at making movies that didn't look too shabby on the silver screen without having to mortgage their house.

Bob.

On a different note...

Good to see you up and about Spot. Hope your recovery is proceeding well.

Bob,

It's not about money, it's about keeping our options open so we don't keep getting 'LOCKED-IN". Lock in is a big problem because it discourages competition.

If something is really better, it will soar to the top on its own merits.

We don't have a need for the old interlace standards for TV broadcast ever since they switched to DTV, unless that's part of your customers needs, and that's understandable.

Knowledge is fleeting, and you have to keep an eye on the horizon else get caught in a storm.

Any video editor ignoring the revolution taking place is going to get less and less work if they have limited ability. They probably don't even know that they are being passed over, the customer probably feeds the "new media" jobs elsewhere to avoid your diatribe about all the rules.

Bud, don't know where you came from on 12/24 .. but this forum is and has always been very open to new technologies.. new software... latest/greatest ,,duds/flubs , not everyone here uses vegas exlusively , some don't use it at all... between the fanboys and the bashers is a wealth of info, not just old school...if it was they never would have known what vegas was

It's not about money, it's about keeping our options open so we don't keep getting 'LOCKED-IN".

I'd have to strongly disagree. It is all about money. It's all about accomplishing tasks quickly with quality. End of story. If you've got the time to play around with the video, then you're a serious hobbyist at best and not reporting to anyone else.
And that angle is fine, but for the broad majority of Vegas users, it's about turning and burning.

We don't have a need for the old interlace standards for TV broadcast ever since they switched to DTV, unless that's part of your customers needs, and that's understandable.
Actually, we do have those same standards, even for mobile delivery and other delivery mechanisms both now known and unknown. Maybe your world is geared only to the web, which is why you're finding yourself postulating about all these strange codecs, which is not at all a new issue for any NLE. DivX over a decade ago, anyone?

They probably don't even know that they are being passed over, the customer probably feeds the "new media" jobs elsewhere to avoid your diatribe about all the rules.

All of our clients (and in-house) shoot on a RED, SI2k, XDCAM, XDCAM EX, Varicam, HDV, or AVCHD. A couple use TSCC. None of them shoot on Flips, Webbies, or any other absurdity. A few shoot GoPro HD's for crashcams. Vegas manages all of them just fine. Yes, DVCProHD requires some manipulating that is a PITA, but that's not a Sony problem. Panasonic has been exceptionally vocal about how they will not allow Sony to license their decoder.
The people that ARE shooting on odd-ball codec camcorders aren't hiring editors. And editors that need to capture content from the web, generally know how to go about doing that.

Knowledge is fleeting indeed. And it's easy to get passed up. But from a point of view in the professional world, 99% of what you're postulating is a straw man argument about what might be, and what likely never will be. It's the same BS we heard 15 years ago with DV and the various DV codes, and the same BS we heard when HDV first originated. And the same BS we're hearing now about AVCHD.
Is *everything* compliant? Nope....and likely never, ever will there be a time when everything available is entirely importable and compliant. There will always be the 'geek-fixes' and sure, they work fine for the pimply-faced kid farting around with video in his basement making Doom and WOW videos for YouTube. But they don't play in the paying, working market, and the standards that exist in the working, paying market (for the most part) work very well.