ExpressDV does not require any hardware (except for its security dongle). It will be interesting to see what happens when Avid Free DV comes out...

There was a time that knowing a word processor meant Word perfect and knowing a spreadsheet meant Lotus 123. Not knowing either of these 2 programs meant not being a professional.

A good part of the reason for this was the huge investment in the products, the vast installed user base and no legitimate competition. Times truly have changed.

Standards change too but it takes time, marketing muscle and a product that is every bit as good or better than the original to make any inroads.

Vegas is a wonderful tool. Whether it's the "One" or not remains to be seen.

Mike

1.a decent trim tool with accurate keyboard shortcuts to trim by single frames

You DO know Vegas has this??? Look at the numpad number keys - they allow trimming via the keyboard by single frames.

I know there is some timeline trim functionality, but I did say decent ;-)

For a start, unless I have missed something important, the timeline trim with keyboard shortcut does not unroll one side of an edit while rolling up the other side, which can only be done by “holding Ctrl+Alt while dragging the and event edge between two events” to quote the manual. I use this feature all the time when cutting from one action shot to another – its useful if you have the action in sync buy want to alter the point where you cut between the shots.

Did you agree with my other points?

I'm sure you all realize this, but our entire culture is based off of namebrands (Kleenex, Bic, Microsoft, Sharpie, etc.. etc...) AVID is just another one that is a household name in this industry...unfortunately, most of the industry still uses it. Im no authority on this, but IMO, that will be changing soon. When you have thousands of colleges and even highschools using mostly software based programs (VV, final cut pro, etc..) and DV, you are going to have an entirely new generation of people who grew up editing and producing films (even if it is "non-professional" to start off). This field is almost advancing as fast as the computer field technology wise. Viva la revolution...

my 2 cents

I'm not totally sure:

1.a decent trim tool with accurate keyboard shortcuts to trim by single frames
Numpad keys - not sure about the exception you noted

2.excellent media organisation including the ability to create sub clips
I always use the explorer view. As for sub-clips, regions can be defined in the trimmer in viewed in the explorer window.

3.track locking to ensure sync and the display of lack of sync on timeline
You can lock each event on the timeline. If events are grouped, you will maintain sync on the timeline. Not sure what else you are looking for.

4.render on the timeline for all video effects: no further rendering required to digicut (print to tape from timeline)
Once again, not sure what you mean. You can pre-render in Vegas with no further rendering needed for PTT. It WILL create a W64 file though.

5.logarithmic audio levels in audio envelope
Isn't that what the volume envelope does????

6.audio envelope attached to a media block rather than the timeline
Sometimes I can see that as being a nice feature to add. Other times I wonder what the big deal is. (I always adjust volume last anyway.)

7.ability to convert images from RGB colours to CCIR601 colours [1]
8.video levels are correct (CCIR601) for no-media in timeline [2]
Broadcast Colors Filter

9.can edit together edited sequences: an edit timeline can be opened in source monitor, the trim tool in Vegas, and edited into a new timeline
I just RENDER and then add the new AVI to the new timeline.

Just something I found interesting. I just got the infor on DV Expo today and they are going to have "hands-on training" to become "DV Certified". This isn't a bad thing but for this thread I found this 'funny' that the only things they offer for getting "DV Certified" is is After Effects, Final Cut Pro and Avid Xpress DV. Why no VV?

Avid is the industry standard because 15 years of trial and error has established a professioanl workflow that allows films and broadcast shows to go throught the post pipeline without a hitch. If any of you get a chance to sit in on a Avid Symphony on-line session you'll understand why it's the industry standard and how far behind software only systems are.

This has nothing to do with editing - you can cut just as good a show using Vegas as you can using Avid or Final Cut Pro. But how do you do a frame accurate insert edit in the middle of a digibeta tape? How about realtime color correction with NO rendering. Hardware dependant systems will like Avid will remain "standard" for some time to come. Final Cut Pro has made huge inroads because it is "Avid-like" and has excellent 3rd party hardware support - Kona, Pinnacle Cinewave, Voodoo, Decklink etc. These hardware add-ons allow true broadcast quality input/output from/to any tape format .

For a product like Vegas to become widely accepted by "pro" users etc. it will need 3rd party hardware(or Sony hardware:) ). We need to be able to capture AND output directly from Vegas using any industry standard tape format. Currently I render my Vegas projects out uncompressed (to a firewire drive) and bring them to a Avid Symphony bay for final check and tape output. No one has ever said anything negative about the edited show and the quality coming out of Vegas is as good as any other system.

I'm not trying to create an argument, I've just listed some of the features that I use in Avid that I miss from Vegas.

>> 1.a decent trim tool with accurate keyboard shortcuts to trim by single frames
>Numpad keys - not sure about the exception you noted

Ok – but that exception is the type of trim that I use the most.

>> 2.excellent media organisation including the ability to create sub clips
> I always use the explorer view. As for sub-clips, regions can be defined in the trimmer in viewed in the explorer window.

I don't understand how the regions in defined in the trimmer are viewed in the explorer window?

>>3.track locking to ensure sync and the display of lack of sync on timeline
>You can lock each event on the timeline. If events are grouped, you will maintain sync on the timeline. Not sure what else you are looking for.

I agree that Vegas has some good sync locking. I guess what pisses me off is the constant unlocking and relocking of video & audio blocks (unlocking to trim audio/video individually and reclocking again to ensure sync). What I miss is track locking – where you leave all the video/audio unlocked for easy trimming and turn on a flag on the tracks you want to stay locked in sync thus allowing trims.
If you didn't understand the 'display of lack of lack of sync on the timeline' comment then let me explain. In Avid software, if you have a block of video and audio from the same sync source (a single captured block) that are coincident on the timeline and you accidentally slip the audio or video out of sync then a symbol is displayed in the out-of-sync audio and video blocks. In Vegas it is impossible to see if two media blocks are out of sync.

>> 4.render on the timeline for all video effects: no further rendering required to digicut (print to tape from timeline)
>Once again, not sure what you mean. You can pre-render in Vegas with no further rendering needed for PTT. It WILL create a W64 file though.

So more rendering is required – for the audio. Oh, and since prerendered media is not stored with the source media its easy for it to get lost. On Avid all the prerendered files appear in the media tool and are therefore part of your project.

>> 5.logarithmic audio levels in audio envelope
>Isn't that what the volume envelope does????

No, they are linier audio levels and not logarithmic.

>> 6.audio envelope attached to a media block rather than the timeline
> Sometimes I can see that as being a nice feature to add. Other times I wonder what the big deal is. (I always adjust volume last anyway.)

I guess you don't work they way I do then.

>> 7.ability to convert images from RGB colours to CCIR601 colours [1]
>> 8.video levels are correct (CCIR601) for no-media in timeline [2]
> Broadcast Colors Filter

NO. The broadcast colours filter clips. It does not transpose.

Regarding the no-media in a timeline: Imagine a fade up from black created as section with no media in the timeline followed by a block of video and slide the video fade handle to create a mix. That now fades up from RGB black. Now if you clip that using the broadcast colours you completely knacker the bottom end of the mix.

>> 9.can edit together edited sequences: an edit timeline can be opened in source monitor, the trim tool in Vegas, and edited into a new timeline
> I just RENDER and then add the new AVI to the new timeline.

You've never worked on long edits where you have to edit sections then bolt them together ad then tweak the whole thing? Or never needed to repeatedly insert a generic interstitial sting effect that you put in the middle of a timeline (obviously, an effect is not just a piece of rendered media – it may have keys or other effects that need to be inserted along with media)? If not they you won't miss the lack of being able to edit together timeline sequences.

As I say, these are just a few editing niggles off the top of my head, comparing ExpressDV with Vegas 4.0c. I'm ignoring the RS422 deck control and other stuff you get with ExpressDV.

Interesting discussion. If I might address a few points:

>>> 1.a decent trim tool with accurate keyboard shortcuts to trim by single frames

A keyboard frame by frame adjacent edge trim is done by holding Ctrl+Alt while pressing NumPad 1 and 3. You can also slip-trim using Alt and stretch using Ctrl.

>>> 5.logarithmic audio levels in audio envelope

I'm not sure I understand. Audio envelopes are in db, with are already logarithmic. A linear fade in db space is perceptually linear, but log interally. Further, Vegas offers "fast" and "slow" curves on envelope segments -- is that what you're looking for?

>>> 7.ability to convert images from RGB colours to CCIR601 colours [1]

Perhaps you should apply Broadcast Colors to the Media and/or Project level instead on Events. I believe that would address your concern.

///d@

OK, yes, I totally agree with this subject title; "its about workflow"

Its about workflow for whatever NLE you use; thats the bottom line. Some like Avid, some like VV, some like FCP, some like the plethora of other NLEs out there. What it really comes down to is the final product. The tools are just a means to getting that; no matter what you use or if you are an amatuer or professional. Maybe we should all stop trying to prove ourselves on each others preferences and just start making some fantastic pieces of work!! =P

>>>Maybe we should all stop trying to prove ourselves on each others preferences and just start making some fantastic pieces of work!!<<<

He he....yes indeed. That is sort of like this entire thread about what makes Avid the "standard" - I maintain the concept that if it is good it is good, no matter how it got to the "good" point. (By the way - did you notice that d1editor has deleted all of his posts? A lot of this disccusion came out of things he had posted, so now some of the thread may not make any sense to those newly following it) Anyhow - yeah - a well edited piece can be created with VV as well as Avid. And if you think of VV and Avid as Editing programs than they are equal in that they can edit material put onto the timeline. Most of the awards you see for best editing are called editing awards - not "Best Avid Editing" "Best Premiere Editing" "Best Vegas Video Editing" "Best Discreet Editing" and so on. But the actual 'edit' part is only a small portion of the 'whole package' and if you care about options than certianly Avid offers more that VV, and that is part of what made Avid the 'industry standard' years ago.

The unsync flag per track WOULD be a nice feature .. as well as lock media even after splits (i hate it also when a track gets shifted and its not noticed right away)

the ability of rs422 control i have always wanted (why i flip now between avid and vegas for the most part -- but ive got real good at hiting the record button on a SP as vegas counts down to 0) , but laying out tracks for laser disks and master programming tapes which must be frame dead on (on beta sp or d-beta) are not possable from vegas with the equipment i have now (laird blue flame).

i think personally the frame (or even field) editing in vegas is better ..

ill stay out of the rest of it ..

its rather funny ... 2 years ago this would not even been debated or discussed or really even thought of --

THATS how far vegas has come ...

> Interesting discussion. If I might address a few points:
I'm delighted that you have :-)


>>>> 1.a decent trim tool with accurate keyboard shortcuts to trim by single frames
>>> Numpad keys - not sure about the exception you noted
>> Ok – but that exception is the type of trim that I use the most.
>A keyboard frame by frame adjacent edge trim is done by holding Ctrl+Alt while pressing NumPad 1 and 3. You can also slip-trim using Alt and stretch using Ctrl.

Ah – that's not in the manual (that I can see) and you get no immediate feedback that you are in that mode until after you've slipped by a frame. I expected the red [ to turn into an I when in that mode. I'll start a thread about how hard it is to get to num-pad shortcuts on a Sony laptop at another time...

>>>> 5.logarithmic audio levels in audio envelope
>>> Isn't that what the volume envelope does????
>> No, they are linier audio levels and not logarithmic.
>I'm not sure I understand. Audio envelopes are in db, with are already logarithmic.

Bzzzt. Just because db is displayed does not make it logarithmic. If you pull an audio envelope 50% of the way down the level is reduced by 50%, ie 6dB. That is linear – no matter what scale its marked in.

Now compare that to a real audio fader, if you pull that down 50% you'll reduce the level by around 20dB. That is a logarithmic scale.

If the audio envelope were logarithmic then the difference between each dB gain reduction would be result in the envelope moving down the same amount – moving from 0dB to -6dB would move the envelope down by the same amount as if you moved the envelope down from -6dB to -12db (excepting the very low end of the scale where the audio taper must be modified from logarithmic).

FYI the faders in the audio mixer section are also not logarithmic.

>>>> 7.ability to convert images from RGB colours to CCIR601 colours [1]
>>>> 8.video levels are correct (CCIR601) for no-media in timeline [2]
>>> Broadcast Colors Filter
>>NO. The broadcast colours filter clips. It does not transpose.
>>Regarding the no-media in a timeline: Imagine a fade up from black created as section with no media in the timeline followed by a block of video and slide the video fade handle to create a mix. That now fades up from RGB black. Now if you clip that using the broadcast colours you completely knacker the bottom end of the mix.
>Perhaps you should apply Broadcast Colors to the Media and/or Project level instead on Events. I believe that would address your concern.

It does not. Firstly, how can I apply Broadcast colours to a section of a track with no media in? Yes, as I said above, I could apply Broadcast Colours to a track or the Project output but within the 8% of level between RGB black and CCIR601 black clipping occurs and that is just NOT RIGHT.

This point is actually one of the things I bugs me the most about Vegas. It appears that Vegas could be a great piece of broadcast quality NLE software BUT its still trying to be domestic and catering for the RGB world (web media and the like) and just misses the technical standards required for broadcast unless the user knows the flaws in Vegas and works around them. To do a fade to/from black I now generate “Sonic Foundry Solid Color” with RGB values of 16,16,16 and crossfade between that an my video. That ensures that the video never goes below CCIR601 black and is a closer approximation of a real fade from/to black than going via the no-media RGB 0,0,0 that is the default.

Not wanting to sound rude but doesn't SF realise that no media should produce CCIR601 black instead of RGB black when working with CCIR601 video? Maybe there should be a menu option to say whether Vegas is working in CCIR601 color space and RGB color space, which would make blacks default to CCIR601 black and all whites default to CCIR601 white instead of the current RGB black and white default values?

MDSH,

" ... To do a fade to/from black I now generate “Sonic Foundry Solid Color” with RGB values of 16,16,16 and crossfade between that an my video. That ensures that the video never goes below CCIR601 black and is a closer approximation of a real fade from/to black than going via the no-media RGB 0,0,0 that is the default ..."

This is an interesting comment for I produce for broadcasting also. I do have a 16,16,16 black for 7.5 IRE level in all of my projects (and a 235,235,235 white also). I did bring this up to discussion in another thread a while ago and had to find a solution by my own.

My turnaround: I edit using the scopes provided in V4, adjusting levels accordingly. Before the final render, I add to the output the color correction filter. There is a preset called "computer RGB to studio RGB. It lifts the blacks and crushes the whites (not clip them) and therefore bring the final render to NTSC broadcast levels. I don't understand why I have to do this, though ... but it works. I've tested it with a scope and it's OK.

Gilles

mdsh:

I understand what you mean about the envelope lines and black levels.

I think you can solve your "project black" issue by creating a track below all others with a solid color generator with 601 black. This would make sense as a project setting, as would some 601 black / white solid color generator presets.

Be assured that we will take these issues and the others you raised under advisement for future versions.

///d@

P.S. Our CTO has a Sony laptop and also curses about the NumPad issue. His solution was to get a ShuttleXpress (although a ShuttlePRO would work too, but is larger in the briefcase.)

Dennis,

Thanks for your comments.

>Ithink you can solve your "project black" issue by creating a track below all others with a solid color generator with 601 black.

That is a really good idea. Thanks! I don't know why I didn't think of it – darn ;-)

>P.S. Our CTO has a Sony laptop and also curses about the NumPad issue. His solution was to get a ShuttleXpress (although a ShuttlePRO would work too, but is larger in the briefcase.)

That is also a good idea. I tried ShuttlePRO year or two ago before I started using Vegas as heavily as I do now and had forgotten about it. I think I may order one this instant.

I think you can solve your "project black" issue by creating a track below all others with a solid color generator with 601 black.
----------------
If you want faster rendering, make a "legal" black clip saved as a DV or uncompressed AVI file. I use one that is 30 sec. long and adjust as needed.

Craig H.