What the F*&%$ Happened to Dual Processor Support??

fishtank wrote on 2/11/2003, 11:57 PM
After many hours of experimentation with the ASIO buffer settings etc, I was dissapointed to see that V4 choked much sooner than I expected using lower latency (< 256 sample buffer settings on my Frontier Dakota) with only 9 tracks playing. Granted, I had a fair amount of plug-ins running - but this is on a Tyan Tiger S2466 M\B with a pair of MP-1900's!!! I watched the CPU usage with the Windows Task Monitor and noticed that only one processor was being used. The older versions of Vegas were not true multi-threaded, but the Direct-X processing used one CPU while the rest of the software used the other. This worked out quite well for me with Vegas 2.0.

Since Vegas 2.0h was still on the machine, I brought up a 24 track mix with a fair amount of plug-ins runnings and the Task Monitor showed a reasonable distribution of the load between the two CPU's with a lower overal usage. This really, really sucks!

I searched all the new Vegas 4 info on the website and did not see any mention of dual processor support with the exception of video rendering crap. The catalog I just got talks about the 3 GHz P-IV HT stuff and how great it is but never mentions dual processor. Did SF yank this from us? I dumped a ton of money in my computer six months ago based on advice from a SF employee in this forum about dual CPU advantages when running a ton of Direct-X effects! I was quite happy with the performance I had with Vegas 2....now I have gone backwards!

I really hope SF brings this back soon in the next update. Otherwise I can only see moving to Nuendo and kissing the money I spent for the V4 upgrade goodbye. There are a lot of nice new features in V4, but we apparently lost dual processor support and still do not have auto-input tape style monitoring!

Anyone else using dual CPU's notice this??

Comments

LooneyTunez wrote on 2/12/2003, 8:29 AM
Fishtank,

I am running a very similar setup as you (Dual Athlon MP1700+ on Tyan Tiger MPX), and if your observations are a reality, then this would explain the difficulties I've been having getting V4 to perform as well as VV3. Could someone from SF confirm or deny dual processor support?

FWIW, this would definitely explain why some people claim performance is greater in V4 than VV3...maybe it's more efficient with a single processor, but those of us using duallies may be seing a performance decrease.
bnjenter wrote on 2/12/2003, 10:50 AM
I'm having problems with this as well. I didn't mention it in the forum. I thought I was the only one. Apparently not.

I'm running Dual Athlon 1900+ on Tyan Tiger MP.
RikTheRik wrote on 2/12/2003, 12:38 PM
Multi threading in audio applications is a very big issue and very complex stuff.
I think it was much a matter of luck that Vegas 2 was performing well using two processors. Today, only Nuendo (not even Cubase !) has been optimized for multi threading. Besides, Pentium 4 hyperthreading and multi processor support is the same beast = multi threading. And I think technically it all gets more complex with low latencies ! ASIO allows buffer down to few milliseconds and Vegas < 4 were using MME buffers which are around hundred milliseconds.
Former user wrote on 2/12/2003, 1:36 PM
Dual processor support is enabled at the OS level...not the app level. What OS are you using?

Cuzin B
fishtank wrote on 2/12/2003, 1:45 PM
If it was luck in Vegas 2 it sounds like Vegas 3 was also lucky in this respect as LooneyTunez appears to be seeing the same behavior with VV3 versus Vegas 4.

Sadly, it is starting to look like the only answer is to move to Nuendo. I believe Samplitude 7 and Sonar 2.2 claim to have multi-processor support though I have no idea how well it works. I read on the Steinberg site that Cubase does support multiple-processors - am I missing something? Maybe the only app that has been fully optimized for multi-processor is Nuendo, but others claim support and I definitely see a substantial performance hit with Vegas 4. I would suspect the addition of ASIO probably had something to do with this, but it is unfortunate that new features end up decreasing performance (at least for us duallies).

I wish I would have known this ahead of time as I could have saved the $150 I spent on the *upgrade* and put it towards Nuendo. Too bad as Vegas has a nice interface among other things - SF just doesn't seem to be all that serious about audio anymore.
fishtank wrote on 2/12/2003, 1:49 PM
Win 2K SP3.

The computer seems to be OK and I do see some CPU load distribution with Vegas 2 though this is not the case with Vegas 4.
MyST wrote on 2/12/2003, 1:49 PM
Did you contact tech support directly?
It does say dual processor support on the Vegas product description.

M
fishtank wrote on 2/12/2003, 2:32 PM
Take at look at this previous post from SF -

www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=89040&Page=0. This advice helped me make my decision to go dual processor. Evidently, this is no longer true.
CDM wrote on 2/12/2003, 4:58 PM
from what I can tell, it just says that it can do:

Dual processor DV rendering support

but nothing about dual processor use with audio.

fishtank wrote on 2/12/2003, 6:54 PM
Did you look at the post I referred to?

Here it is:

-----------------------------
"If you do processor-intensive audio (lots of plug-ins for instance) then dual proc really shines. If mostly video, a super fast single proc is a good pick. You do get a speed jump with dual, how much depends on the project."

------------------------------

That was posted by a SF employee. The thing is - he was right about what he said in that post until now. My complaint is that V4 went backwards in this area.
Former user wrote on 2/12/2003, 10:17 PM
Fish,

DISCLAIMER: Read this carefully - do NOT proceed if you are at all uneasy about making these changes. These changes could have an adverse effect on your machine.

First off - to enable dual processor support in Windows 2000, you must install the correct HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer). This usually happens during initial setup. Win 2000 must be specifically setup to handle this. See here for more detail. It does not happen automatically:

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb%3Ben-us%3B234558

The tipoff for me was your reference to Task Manager only seeing one CPU. If that's the case - you have the wrong HAL installed.



Cheers,

Cuzin B
LooneyTunez wrote on 2/12/2003, 10:34 PM
Well, I've confimed through my own testing that Fishtank is correct that V4 is not utilitzing dual processors as it's predecessors have. With the exact same project loaded into VV3 and V4, VV3 is basically sharing processes equally between the two processors. V4 is practically pegging my first processor, with the second processor virtually idle. I'm not buying the idea that we've been getting lucky with earlier versions just happening to work well with duallies, and it seems to me that something in the code of V4 slipped through the cracks and disabled dual processor support.

Those of you using single processor machines are not going to see these issues, because your projects have never exceeded the limits of your single processor...whereas, a project that is pushing the limits of even a dual system will come to a screeching halt if dual processor support is no longer available.

Is it possible that Fishtank and I are seeing these problems because we're both using Tyan MP(X) Mobo's? Sure, but since VV3 works well for me, and VV2 works well for him, that's not likely.

An official email to the SF team will be sent shortly.
LooneyTunez wrote on 2/12/2003, 10:39 PM
Cuzin B,

I think maybe you misread what Fish was saying...he was saying that V4 was only using one processor, not that he only saw one CPU meter in task manager.

Also, Dual support can be utilitzed at the app level as well as the OS level.
Former user wrote on 2/13/2003, 6:51 AM
Looneytunez,

Fair enough on your comments. While fishtank never actually stated that his dual support waqs actually working in any other apps, it was hard to tell if his machine is correctly configured. I have seen this problem a lot with folks who think Win2000 always picks up on everything.

As far as Vegas goes...I am afraid Fish is right...if you get a chance - pop over to Creative Cow and hit the Vegas Video forum - look for the topic: Is Vegas 4 100% multi-threaded?

http://www.creativecow.net/index.php?forumid=24

Cheers,
Cuzin B
fishtank wrote on 2/13/2003, 7:23 AM
I guess I am just not being clear enough....THERE ARE TWO PROCESSORS SHOWN IN MY TASK MANAGER! MY MACHINE IS RUNNING PROPERLY!

I stated the Vegas was only using ONE of the processors - not that I only saw one graph, I see two of them and Vegas 4 uses only one while Vegas 2 will split the load somewhat between the two.
fishtank wrote on 2/13/2003, 11:12 AM
Update:

I received an email for SF tech support about this issue. They have acknowledged that changes made have indeed caused the performance to drop for dual-processor systems. They claim that they are looking to address this though it will probably not make the 4.0b release.

I guess I can only wait patiently and hope for the best. It is a shame as Vegas 2 worked very nicely with lots of tracks and DX effects on my dual processor box. Even under heavy load the machine was very responsive.
ahurley wrote on 2/22/2003, 9:21 AM
I've noticed the same thing between VV3 and VV4. It is NOT a configuration issue.

With VV3 I can have tons of effects and tracks and it takes quite a load to slow it down. With version 4, the same project is impossible to really edit on without bouncing down. Certainly a disappointment. Let's hope they git it fixed.

I, for one, need both horses running full speed to get this buggy to town.
tbrowning wrote on 2/27/2003, 1:57 AM
Some very good info in this thread. I too am running dualies, and noticed a distinct drop in performance on V4. Until now, I thought I was in the crowd that is just experiencing all the pops and clicks and static bursts. Now I am not so sure. Maybe my real problem is in dual support.

Thanks for all the info!
tbrowning wrote on 2/27/2003, 1:58 AM
Any word as to the timing of 4.0b?
stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/1/2003, 5:40 PM
well, we have 4.0a to come first...
CDM wrote on 3/1/2003, 5:42 PM
4.0a was the cd release. 4.0b will be the first bug fix patch.
fotochaz wrote on 3/7/2003, 7:11 PM
I just recived the Offical Answer from tech support ;;;;;

Hello Charlie,

Thanks for writing. Vegas 4.0 only uses one processor. The clicks and
pops you're experiencing are likely a result of another issue. To start, I
would say to install the newest drivers for both your sound card and video
card.
Driver updates are available from the manufacturer's website. Also
make sure that your hard drive has been defragmented recently. Please let
us know if you continue to have problems. If you have any further
questions, please feel free to contact us by e-mail or call any of our customer
service reps from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. CST at 1-800-577-6642. For technical
support, please call 1-900-40-SONIC.
Geoff_Wood wrote on 3/7/2003, 7:24 PM
Well that sounds like a generic fob-off answer for Noddies. I wouldn't beleieve the dual proc statement of the strength of that, although 'official'.


geoff