Tim,
Sounds like you are getting into the same thing I've been doing for about a year now. At first I thought about how much to charge and tried to come up with a pricing method but I just couldn't justify any per hour cost that would be feasible for a customer to pay. So, I figured that a "project" cost would be better...say $50 bucks or so a project depending on how much effort I put into it. But, as jobs came up for mostly friends and co-workers, I found that I felt more comfortable putting it together and when they asked how much, I'd just say "whatever you think is fair". Of course, I don't do this for the money. I've given far more projects as gifts than those I've done for pay. It makes me feel good when they like the work and it shows in their faces. Of course, if I needed extra income and could guarantee a professional product on time, I'd certainly charge a fair rate. The fact is I wait until I'm in the right mood before putting a show together. Sometimes that takes a while. So, I don't charge. However, from what I've received from those who have insisted on paying me, I'd say $50 is the minimum and $100 is the maximum unless you put a whole lot of time and effort into a major show. Hope this helps.
Aloha,
Randy

Randy I like your approach.

I also understand from what you have said that doing more does make one more confident. For myself, being confident in my "product" does spill over into the way I conduct myself with my clients.

In one form or another, I've been invovlved in the arts all my life. Let's be clear on one thing, working in the arts/crafts is a respected and valued and valuing profession. At best it provides joy and enlightenment to those who struggle to produce items or projects that hold together. For those who consume it, the results are similar. I suppose what I am saying - don't underestimate the power and potency of your art/media output. I have learnt to believe I can not "sell" anything to anybody unless it is what they want. Okay, the reasons I might be selling it may be 180 degrees away from the buying decision being made by one of my clients - but the statement still holds. - I'm new to producung my simple movies and want to use the skills I've learnt, within VF, to produce short training vids as "add-ons" for the clients I now deal with. Soooo... reasons making and selling vids are many and varied.

Some people might buy a movie because they initially like the look of the VHS tape cover etc etc. Randy, you say you don't do this for money, but you have been approached by those who have insisted on paying. Putting a "price" on what you do actually gives the buyer a certain sense of obtaining an item of value. Am I making sense?

This is a very interesting discussion.

G

I'll add my bit to the already valued comments. I'm a therapist who has branched out into producing training videos for trainee therapists. When I first started I naively thought I could quickly learn dv editing and churn these videos out by the score. I had chosen VW5. Big mistake. It cost me time, money and a heck of a lot of trouble. Then I came over from the 'dark side' and things began to move. I sell these videos for a set price but now other therapists/friends from various disciplines now request my expertise to produce their videos. I had no idea on a fee but decided to charge the same hourly fee I charge clients for therapy. If it takes me a day to capture, edit and ptt I'll charge a day's fee. People are happy to pay this.

My own view is if someone is good at something they should charge accordingly. It's a question of valuing their own abilities. To me it's immaterial if it's enjoyable as a hobby and if it's for friends (friends can take advantage of another's good nature :o), although for close friends I do charge less. Another way of gauging a fee is to find out the hourly rate charged by one's local garage. I know this may sound odd but when you think about it it's not a bad meter to use as a yardstick.

I also believe in adding to our skills-base as much as possible and if that makes money all well and good.

Laz - nicely put!

Do you think there is an option for us to work collaboratively across the "Great Divide" on some projects in the future?

G

My 2 cents worth,,,,,

When I got into video editing it was for the sole purpose to capture and create a memory for my kids. I created small movies of their sports event, school plays and variety shows and even their class field trips. I always made copies for the parents of the other kids in the movies and gave them away for free. Word gets out and my editing skills improve and I am finding myself faced with just this "problem".

This is how I have decided to approach the situation. First, this is not my profession. This is my hobby. I let this known when I choose to produce a video for someone. I am very honest and up front about the upsides and downsides of using me to produce a project.... upside= quality work with many "extras" in the video editing process,,,,, downside= unable (unwilling) to mass produce final ciopy (ie,,, 25 VCR tapes) ,,,, Once I have communicated this, I find that most still want me to produce the video based on what they havve seen of my previous productions.

Of the times which I have actually captured the video, it has been for friends, and I would have been at the event regardless, so I haven't charged to capture any video in these cases. If, I was doing this professionally, I would survey the local area and discover the average charge per hour of Video Capture and charge accordingly.

Most of the projects I have done for others have been "slide show" presentations. As this is my hobby, I allow the person decide on the gratuity. I don't take $$$$. Usually they will ask what I want, but I leave it up to them. For example, I just produced a 18minute 50th Anniversary project which took me about 5 hours (including scanning 400+ pictures, capturing or downloading music, editing and producing 4 copies of a data disc / 4 copies in a VCD and 1 VHS tape...... for this I was given 2 rounds of golf ($100), $50 dinner certificate, $45 of CDr media and VHS media ,,,, But, the best reward was the big Thank You and excitement this person had knowing she was giving this to her parents for their 50th Anniversary ... In contrast ,,,, I produced a simple 2 minute video for a parent who's camcorder battery failed ,,,, I never recieved a Thank You from her ,,,,, and I know I will always be too busy to help her in the future ....

But ,,, what if I was doing this professionally? ,,,, I would probably charge by the production. I would be very specific of what the consumer is getting for their $$$. For example,,,, I would charge $75 for a simple slide show presentation (less than 100 pics) with fade transitions, an Intro Text, an Ending Text and One Soundtrack and a Single Output Source. (non of this need be synchronized) ,,,, I have researched this and this seems to be standard.

The first retirement video I did, I made it clear it was going to be free. All I wanted was for the clients to let people know who did the video and that I am willing to do more for pay.

All that said, they still *made* me take $60 for the work. Which was nice.

If I charged what I get in my day job the video would have been somewhat over $200 so I don't think or know if that is reasonable.

Surely there are businesses chargeing for this type of thing already. Any websites?

I do like the artistic freedom associated with doing it free. Because they get what they pay for and cannot make massive changes in the product and generally happy for what they get.

Start charging and they would expect more control in the final product.

I think I like the idea, of stating its a hobby, pay what you think is fair after seeing it.

-Tim

All,
Really am enjoying everyone's inputs. It's great to hear other ideas and feelings about this hobby/profession. I closely connect to cococoop's comments as that is very near to how things have progressed for me. However, I must say that I've slowed down a lot since the first "buzz" with this hobby. It can consume your time if you let it. I had to make a decision about how far I wanted to go toward the business end of this. In fact, I actually started a little business (wrote a plan, made a business card, etc.) with my son to try and teach him the ends and outs of small business but I quickly discovered that I didn't want the added pressure of satisfying a "paying" customer's need. I have enough pressure with my day job. For those creative types that do this (or related) for a living, I totally support paying for what you do. As Grazie says, it's worth it to the customer too. I'm just not inclined to progress to that level right now. Good possibility for retirement however. Looking forward to other views.
Randy

Tim

I think you've already received good advice. I'm in a similar line of business to Grazie (organisational change) and for me doing projects for friends is more difficult. If I'm working with a client, the relationship is straight forward - they're buying, I'm selling and if there's a problem we understand how to address it. When you're working for friends, things get fuzzy - no one's quite sure what the rules are and you can end up putting in a lot of time and effort for very little financial reward. Worse, you can put pressure on yourself and it stops being fun.

My approach would be to establish some simple ground rules about what you're going to produce, how much time you'll spend doing it, when it will be ready and how much you'll charge. I don't mean you need to draw up formal contracts, btw - just discuss it over a beer. Get those agreed and you can go fishing with a clear conscience!

I'd also keep a note of how much time you *realy* spend on these projects - it'll probably be a lot more than you expect.

Cheers

Ian G.

Grazie, sounds great to me. As Del Boy might say, 'Next year we'll all be millionaires'!

Laz - How to do it? What next? Now who's a Plonker?! - Millionaires? - Nah just some projects starting off with a scope of something.

G

I actually faced this same dilemma regarding webpages. No one would give me a dollar figure. I decided I just needed to do field research. I was curious how much a web site would cost. I did a little looking and found that some companies charge 50$ - $75 hr. for basic html. I also, asked a client what he had paid for his other website. We figured it came out to be about $250 per page for a simple and I mean simple webpage. I did some reading and even pretended to be a potential client and found that some people will work within a client's budget and won't put a figure on the table. I came to the conclusion that about $100-150 was a base price for a webpage and a $50 an hour billing rate was fair given my technical expertise, creativity, comittment and time put into every project. So I suggest testing the market to see what it currently bears and don't undcharge for your services. Saying pay what you think is WAY TOO iffy for me. If clients pay a bit they feel like they are getting something, it it's too cheap they don't appreciate it....I feel like if the client has control over the product, they pay and its not my fault if it looks like crap or not as creative as I would have made it left to my own devices...

Grazie, you're more than welcome to contact me, my address is feelosogood@lineone.net

Interesting subject, but one question keeps coming up in my mind. I'm sure that many use music from CD's or downloaded for their productions for the video projects. When this is done for free or for home use, copyright infringement is not really an issue. However, when you start "charging" for the videos, you become a "professsional" and the rules change. Should we be concerned about this? Should we assume that such low dollar producers as we are, we are not worth legal actions? How does everyone else see this?

Phoenix,
For me there's no question that I would have to pay for use of music that someone else created and sells for their livelyhood if I intend to make money using it also. It's the law. There may be some technicality we are supposed to do this for home use also but since it's in public domain (broadcast over the airwaves), I don't have a problem with using the music for home videos. Most of the time, I've already bought the CD so I've contributed to the creator.
Randy

Randy: I would have to pay for use of music that someone else created and sells for their livelyhood if I intend to make money using it also.

Right.

There may be some technicality we are supposed to do this for home use also but since it's in public domain (broadcast over the airwaves), I don't have a problem with using the music for home videos. Most of the time, I've already bought the CD so I've contributed to the creator.

Not right. Whether or not money is exchanged, and whether or not you already have paid for one copy, duplicating music (or images or other materials) in your video is not an option unless it's just for you alone. Yes, sure, there's enough flexibility that you can probably give a video to Granny or your sister in Saskatchewan.

The best routes to go are public domain music (because it's broadcast does not make it P.D.) like classical Midi files re-rendered well, or your own music. It's the same with stills, drawings, and graphics -- if you didn't buy them, if they didn't come with a license for your software for distribution, etc., then don't give them away or sell them.

Basically, this goes for any country you're in, because just about everybody's signed onto the WIPO treaty now.

Everybody is touchy about this. I know I am, because composing is my livelihood (you can find me at http://maltedmedia.com/). I've just gotten another video job, and you can bet I'll be composing the music for it, just as I'll be composing the video shots, timeline, etc.

I don't want to start an intellectual property flame war. To me, it's more about respect than commerce and law. Nobody's going to care if you use it for your family, and really, the chances are nobody will catch you no matter what you do.

But as creative artists -- that's what we are when we swing that camera and edit that timeline -- we can always help encourage a sense of mutual respect by using what's ours, and getting rights to what isn't. (Besides, imagine how embarrassed you'd be if your home video turned out to be a surprise masterpiece and ended up in a big international festival ... and you had stolen the soundtrack! Ouch!)

Dennis

The way around the music thing I was debating was to have the video buyer, supply their own music via cd's or whatever. Then its for their use and they bought it.

-Tim

Does anyone know of a good (web) source of uncopywrite music?

Kalvos,
Good points and I agree with them all. One thing is for sure, I'm not the guy who is going to take anything away from the artists creating music. They deserve everything they get. There is plenty of uncopyrighted music out there that is available for use. Just have to look for it. Another route is to ask for permission. Know any place on the web that we can ask for it?
Randy

Randy: There is plenty of uncopyrighted music out there that is available for use. Just have to look for it. Another route is to ask for permission. Know any place on the web that we can ask for it?

There are thousands of musicians/composers with websites, including on MP3.com, Vitaminic, Soundclick, etc. The majority have links to contact the artists directly, so if you like a tune, send an email. You'll be surprised how accommodating most composers are! Some will trade for credit, a copy of the video, a case from the local microbrewery, or a few dollars or euros. They'll also be delighted; I know I would be. My MP3.com site has have over 30,000 listens (http://www.mp3.com/bathory/), but hardly anyone buys the CDs. My music turns up in odd places (especially the Car Horn Symphony), with credit, but never with even a token postcard!

If you want to use the work of a Name Artist, you can reach them or their representative through their licensing agency (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc., all have websites). You'll have to pay a small fee most of the time, but small really does mean small -- for a home project, it could be a token $1 check to seal the deal. (A friend just got to use the music of a very well known group on a small commercial production for $50.)

Remember that musicians are especially underpaid among artists, even those whose work is popular. (Read this: http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.html). So the cost of a five-pack of VHS tapes at Wal-Mart will take care of the obligation and make a very positive statement.

Dennis

Try this site. Be sure to read the FAQ.

http://www.freeplaymusic.com/

Tim, technically that still is a violation of copyright. Personal use, although still vauge at this point, does not allow for syncing audio to video or using the music in any format other than the original CD. (and a backup copy according to some). Even though they are providing the music, you are the one editing with it.

Dave T2

Dennis,
Excellent info! I'll be sure to take advantage of it.
Aloha,
Randy