Where is the reverb erase bottom?

D. Collins wrote on 3/9/2010, 7:44 AM
I'm shooting an amateur production that takes place in a small town train depot which has 14 foot plus high ceilings. When I viewed the footage from our first rehearsal, I was startled by the poor quality of the audio. I had a young man operate the mixer who has little experience. I asked him to monitor quality carefully and to keep the mics not in use, closed. I suspect that didn't happen, and there are times when all four mics need to be open for the four actors to interact.

There was some buzz that had do to with having a computer monitor tied to the camera and a computer operating as a prompter tied to the same ac line. I can solve most of these problems, but the reverb is a bear.

I'm using two desk type mics, one lavalier and one shotgun boom mic. I foolishly left a small camera mounted shotgun mic on as a fill, which I'm sure added to the reverb problem.

I have a small portable acoustic enclosure which I could place the shotgun mic into for some of the dialogue. I have two sound blankets that, if I can figure a way to support them, I might be able to place near the actors, but just off camera. Sometimes though, four actors need to interact in a wide shot in the depot waiting room and I can't think of a way to isolate their mics. Maybe use as few mics as possible.

This is a no budget production and I have only one more chance, this Saturday, to get it right. My question is what can I do to cut down the reverb in the room and get that nice clean Hollywood sound? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 3/9/2010, 7:57 AM
1) Use good cardioid mics
2) Get the mics as close to your subject as possible, preferably on-subject.
xberk wrote on 3/9/2010, 8:33 AM
My question is what can I do to cut down the reverb in the room and get that nice clean Hollywood sound?
You're not likely to get all the way there --- but you've taken the first step which is to be concerned with the sound. The best would be to somehow get an experienced location sound person on your crew -- but if that is not possible two things: 1) get sound takes of the ambient sound of the train station. Presence. The idea is to have this to fill the track between the dialogue or to mix with it in post. You have a shot to control this sound and get the station sounding like you want it to. 2) Get sound takes of just the dialogue with mics in close. By this I mean have your actors redo their lines just for the sake of a clean, tightly mic'd sound take. For example if the lav mic is doing the best but you only have one, trade the mic around so all the actors have given their lines using the lav. This can be done relatively quickly as it is sound only. Mixed with the "presence" track this could do wonders. This is "no budget" ADR.

Paul B .. PCI Express Video Card: EVGA VCX 10G-P5-3885-KL GeForce RTX 3080 XC3 ULTRA ,,  Intel Core i9-11900K Desktop Processor ,,  MSI Z590-A PRO Desktop Motherboard LGA-1200 ,, 64GB (2X32GB) XPG GAMMIX D45 DDR4 3200MHz 288-Pin SDRAM PC4-25600 Memory .. Seasonic Power Supply SSR-1000FX Focus Plus 1000W ,, Arctic Liquid Freezer II – 360MM .. Fractal Design case ,, Samsung Solid State Drive MZ-V8P1T0B/AM 980 PRO 1TB PCI Express 4 NVMe M.2 ,, Wundiws 10 .. Vegas Pro 19 Edit

Ethan Winer wrote on 3/9/2010, 10:48 AM
3) Record each mic to a separate track if possible so you can mute unused sounds later if needed.

--Ethan
reberclark wrote on 3/9/2010, 11:30 AM
xberk's advice is best, I think. Get the ambient sounds, preferably scene length or longer - and preferably with a quality sound recorder (Zoom H4?). Then get the dialog during the scenes/setups for reference and rhythms. Have the talent loop the dialog back in the studio (or your garage or basement with blankets). Add ambient sounds after that. I have done this to very good effect.

Note: if there are different setups in the scene the ambient sounds might change - you might consider recording an "ambient set" of sounds to draw from.
farss wrote on 3/9/2010, 12:04 PM
" there are times when all four mics need to be open for the four actors to interact."

How close are those actors?

As Ethan says above your only chance at this is to record each mic into its own channel however even then if the actors are close and talking at the same time you can have problems.

Expecting anyone to twidle 4 knobs fast enough to catch the end of one actors line and the start of a another is a huge ask. A 4 channel recorder solves that problem.
The next problem is having two mics recording what is almost the same sound source. The delay as sound travels through the air means that when the two tracks are mixed you can some frequencies cancelling and some adding i.e. combing. You can correct this in post using a delay FX or possibly just by inverting the phase. In general if the distance between the mics is greater than 3 times the distance from each mic to its sound source you can ignore this problem.

I have to say a lot of no budget productions do fail because of audio problems. There's zillions of words and bitter debates over "which camera...". If only as much energy went into "Which mic..." or even just getting any mic in the right place. <sigh>

ADR is very easy to do using Vegas. It is time consumming and demanding of the talent. Do NOT let them leave an ADR session until you've checked it carefully against vision and intercut with the ajoining scenes. Sudden shifts in tone, cadence or any of the other things that we use to recognise speech is a problem.

One last tip. Don't just record lots of ambient, also record an impulse, a clapper could be enough. Then you can use Acoustic Mirror to match the sound to the shot. Just as the camera moves the viewer close or far from the actor the sound should match.

Bob.
bsuratt wrote on 3/9/2010, 1:12 PM
xberk's on target.

Record the dialog separately in a controlled environment and add/mix in post just like the film world has done for years!

D. Collins wrote on 3/9/2010, 3:27 PM
Thank you all for your suggestions, my head is spinning. I don't have a 4 channel recorder and I'll only have these actors for one day. Even if they did record a desperate dialog tracks, I don't think it could be lip synced. There is only one case where two actors are speaking very near each other and I used only one mic so as not to break the 3 to 1 rule.

I think if I do less wide shots with multiple mics, and where possible place the mic in the sound box as close to the actors as possible I may be alright. I think the whole thing just got out of hand and I didn't realize I had a problem until after the fact. Now, I'm focused.
xberk wrote on 3/9/2010, 4:42 PM
Have the talent loop the dialog back in the studio (or your garage or basement with blankets).

I agree. This is a better way -- BUT -- will it happen? .. Get it while you can on the day of shooting and get it later too with more control if you can. In "no budget land" actors have a way of disappointing you.

I don't think it could be lip synced.
Maybe not perfectly -- no ADR is ever perfect. But it's like horseshoes -- close counts.

Paul B .. PCI Express Video Card: EVGA VCX 10G-P5-3885-KL GeForce RTX 3080 XC3 ULTRA ,,  Intel Core i9-11900K Desktop Processor ,,  MSI Z590-A PRO Desktop Motherboard LGA-1200 ,, 64GB (2X32GB) XPG GAMMIX D45 DDR4 3200MHz 288-Pin SDRAM PC4-25600 Memory .. Seasonic Power Supply SSR-1000FX Focus Plus 1000W ,, Arctic Liquid Freezer II – 360MM .. Fractal Design case ,, Samsung Solid State Drive MZ-V8P1T0B/AM 980 PRO 1TB PCI Express 4 NVMe M.2 ,, Wundiws 10 .. Vegas Pro 19 Edit

D. Collins wrote on 3/26/2010, 11:08 AM
Shoots over and I just want to thank you all for your help.

I used everyone's ideas. Got the mics closer, recorded ambient sound, set up a little sound booth out of the way and had the talent re-recond their lines that might have been off mic, payed much more attention to mic placement, passed arong the one lav mic at times, kept unused mics off, and the result was so much better.

I have other problems now that I'm in post production, but audio is going to be fine. Thanks again, you saved the shoot.